UK Landlord Forum / Life

one question, since this started possesion claim then money claim and now small track counterclaim...who pays for the costs if I win?

also, is there any separate fee to be paid now that I am basically the Claimant in my case? I do not want to make the same thing LL did in not paying the fee.

I have not received the court directions on what exactly to do and also when contacted court, they say the directions will be sent out when the hearing date is finalised.

so, I do not know what exactly to do.. only thing I heard during my last hearing was, I am the Part20 claimant now and I need to file and serve hard copies. I am not aware of any Part20 form to fill or any additional fees to pay.

anyone who knows this area, pls advice me.

For now, I am just going to print the bundle the LL hard originally sent me via email (which the court could not find) and send copies to both the court and the LL. Hope it is ok?

Do I also need a proof of delivery? else I can hand-deliver as the addresses, especially the court's are just near by.

Thanks

Hi all,

some development in this saga..

LL's counsel has called me to ask if we can settle this out of court...

but I do not know what to do..given my case, from previous experiences on similar cases (potentially 4 tenancies and PI was not served for each one of them), what do we think is the 'reasonable' sum I am likely to get?

In the last two years of this case, I have heavily invested a lot of time on this and almost now at the finishing line, so I am also tempted to see this all the way through..Not sure, if this is right though as this my first court case ever in my life..

any advice, pls let me know.

thanks in advance

Of course... tell them you understand the minimum and maximum exposure, as do they, so they should present their best offer to you. Then you see what happens. You don't mention the first number.

yep..but the problem is me knowing what is the minimum and maximum penalty I can get. I have no question that I would win the case though as he simply has no defence.

so I understand it in addition to the deposit, I may minimum get 1x penalty or maximum 12x (3 times for 4 tenancies if I am able to convince court).

The fact that LL actually protected the deposit for majority of the period (despite not serving me a valid PI in any of the case, for that matter he has not served a valid PI to this date), I am not sure how the Judge would see this..is there anywhere I can easily find for such cases to get an idea?

also, once I win, will the courts ask the claimant to pay any interest ( as the deposit is not yet paid back to me and I have vacated the property two years ago) + costs (I hv paid court over £700 in fees alone + all the hours I spent on researching this area)

appreciate some input on this from anyone. thanks

Why does it matter?

Put the ball into their Court and tell them that, yes, you're very amenable to hearing their offer to settle this and avoiding going to Court... then see if the number they come back with pleases you. It doesn't hurt to point out any things like interest and costs you've accrued over the time... so they know that low-balling you in an insulting way won't get them anywhere... use your communication skills to set them up so they offer you something worth your time and something that you can use to bring the matter to a close. Your position here should not be one where you continually turn the screw while trying to extract all the juice from the Landlord's furry plums.

yes, I am talking with them..the first offer they came up with was I drop the charges and I only get the deposit back...nothing extra..which I have politely declined and asked them to come up with a better one.

reason I am asking for some 'guide' on what I am likely to get is that so I know where to draw the line...hope it is clearer..

The minimum is 1x per tenancy, well 1x overall if you found a judge that decides only 1 penalty however many tenancies but most would agree that's not correct in law. The maximum is 3x per tenancy. The court can take into account anything relevant in deciding the penalty. How experience is the landlord - a professional letting agent or a landlord with a large portfolio whose main income is letting are expected to know better than someone who let out the family home while they're working away from home for a couple of years say; was the deposit protected at all and if so when; if the tenancy is finished was the deposit returned within a reasonable time with reasonable claims for deductions etc. Then with multiple tenancies hence multiple penalty they can also consider if the overall amount is reasonable - say in a case where the judge decides 2x is reasonable but there was 10 six-months tenancies, the 20x total was over the top so reduce it for example.

I think you mentioned the landlord's claim was assigned small claims, what about your counterclaim? If it stayed in small claims, then cost are mostly irrelevant - you'll get your claims and hearing fees back.

Interest on the deposit maybe. Not interest on the penalty, it hasn't been awarded yet, the landlord aren't liable to interest on something they're not owing yet.

Quote from: mahira on October 09, 2021, 03:46:33 PMyes, I am talking with them..the first offer they came up with was I drop the charges and I only get the deposit back...nothing extra..which I have politely declined and asked them to come up with a better one.

Yes, this is what you do. Be polite and firm. Don't say "yes" to anything you feel isn't right. At the end of the day they're the ones trying to avoid Court now (openly, I mean, obviously you'd prefer to avoid it too). But only you can have a notion of what you'd be satisfied with. And it doesn't have to be any kind of multiple of Deposit x severity x number of tenancy... it can just be a nice, round amount that you feel adequately compensates you for everything.

The first offer is derisory... but of course it is... isn't it always? That's the whole idea. The power of a simple "no" is a thing many people don't fully understand. It seems, to me, you're in the driving seat. It's not like if you don't agree with their offer(s) you have no other avenue open to you. So let the offers roll in and assess them. If they've reached the point where they're suggesting to you they'd like to settle, then they know they're on the hook for something... but, don't forget, for them it'll just be maths now. So once the first offer comes in that doesn't make you want to puke or laugh out loud (while puking)... I'd probably take it.

yes, now I believe soon I be asked to make a counter offer..Hence why I am trying to understand the average award in cases like this..

Refuse?

"Make a sensible offier or my only counter offer is "see you in Court""? You already know they want to avoid that outcome.

Don't let the tail wag the dog. You are in control. Retain control. Don't be gullible. Every time you mention a number it gives the other side opportunity to drop your expectations.

I'm sorry, this is court, not bargaining on a street market.

Especially if case is NOT in small claims, so cost award is a consideration, the side making the offer benefits if the result is at least as good as the offer they made, whereas the one receiving the offer has to beat it. If you have a figure in your head, just make the offer. If you're worried about going too low when they would have agreed to a higher figure, just start off with a number that's bit higher than you're happy with.

the case is in 'small claim track' does this mean no cost award is made KTC..i.e the winner can claim legal costs ?

Had this offer came in years ago, I would have accepted it, now I had to spend a lot of time and having filed a bundle more than 200 pages long in hard copy, I am contemplating making an offer is worthwhile at this last stage..

If it's on the small claims track, then the winning party (generally) are only entitled to ask the court to award cost such as (in your case) the counterclaim issue fee and any other court fee you may have paid.

The court can order "such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably". "A party's rejection of an offer in settlement will not of itself constitute unreasonable behaviour .. but the court may take it into consideration when it is applying the unreasonableness test."

ok thnaks KTC, what other costs you refer as 'further costs' ? any legal advice costs I may have incurred etc. is it ?  and is there a process to make such request, or should I just saying in the hearing, I want cost awards for X, Y, X?

about offers and its impact, I thought those are without prejudice, meaning they are not admissible in court ?

That quote can be summarised/translated as 'if a party behaved unreasonably, then the court can award cost against them to punish them". I have no idea how you ask for that cost in small claims.

They're not admissible prior to the court judgments so not to influence the judgment itself. Once the judgments are made, that's when cost are considered, it's then that parties can reveal for example I offered to settle for less but they rejected it so they're liable for extra cost.

ok, thanks KTC. Out of curiosity, is there a limit for small claims? and what are the other types of 'claims'?

In my case, initially I had only gone for 3x deposit which is around 7k + 2k original deposit, so made a claim for a total of 9k paying £455.

Now that, there is potentially an argument for 4 different tenancies, I can argue is court for  7 x 4 = 28 , so does that mean I need to pay more fee, if not Judge will simply refuse higher pay out based on the fact that I have not paid the fee accordingly?

thanks

Hi,

I hv been speaking to one legal advisor regarding my case yesterday to get answers for the above and she suggested that if my deposit has not changed hands during the tenancy even if it was renewed, periodic etc, the maximum penalty is 3x.

I challenged her as my understanding was different as I thought 3x applies for each tenancy with req. protect deposit applying afresh each time.

can somebody provide me with hard evidence or any details of past cases to find out which is right pls?

Thanks

Howard v Dalton got very big, then came back down... but still applied. Liaw v Sohal was presented as a transition to SPT, with unsigned renewals, but rejected.

Can't you use Google yourself?

And, maybe, consider ditching this legal advisor?

And let's not forget Jarndyce v Jarndyce (Bleak House,Charles Dickens) This post will soon run to as many pages,but it makes for a very boring read.

The level of highbrow in this forum amazes me.

Yes,some clever clogs once used the expression "Pyrrhic Victory" in the right context once.

Was it Pambin?

Quote from: mahira on November 03, 2021, 12:33:17 AM
can somebody provide me with hard evidence or any details of past cases to find out which is right pls?

No, because I don't think there's binding precedent from a case at the High Court or above where this was an active point decided.

You can find many cases at all level where one penalty (1x-3x each) was given per tenancy where the deposit protection requirements was not complied with. You can find a few cases at the county court level where this was raised by the landlord in defence where the court agreed.

Such a point is unlikely (though never say never) to reach binding precedent level. Most housing lawyers would agree that the correct reading is one penalty per tenancy. If you're the tenant and lose on that point, you still won money from the landlord, you're unlikely to risk significant cost (way more than the penalty itself) by appealing not once but twice to reach the Court of Appeal. If you're the landlord, similarly, now with the added point that advice will tell you that the court was probably right in the first instance.

If this is raised by the landlord in defence, prepare by finding cases where courts have awarded multiple penalties and use the example in reply. Whatever the court decides (if you get that far), just go with it.

No, I think it was your esteemed self Hippogriff.I was pleased to learn the origins of the expression.You can get an education on here in more ways than one. 

thanks KTC and HippoGriff for the useful pointers.I will check out these cases..

some development on my case..with LL now reinstating their money claim which had been stuck out..

quick summary before my questions.
1) LL made a ridiculous money claim, even for period after he has taken possession.
2) I made a counter claim for failing to protect my deposit.
3) he makes series of errors resulting in hearing being postponed at couple of times.
4) he fails to pay fee and claim is stuck out, but court also vacates my counterclaim incorrectly.
5) I contact court to get it reinstated.
6) court orders that I am part20 claimant and asks me to file a join bundle and hearing date set for March 2022.
7) Now, it seems claimant has reinstated claim via N244 to set aside order in 4, but the hearing is for Feb 2022.

so my questions are,
a) with his N244 in 7) he has submitted a witness statement, do I need to respond to that?
b) How do I get both hearing on the same day as there are documents common to both hearing and both should be ideally heard together as they were originally meant to.
c) How come LL and his lawyers manage to get a hearing earlier despite filing the N244 after the date was set for my counterclaim?

Thanks in advance.

Hi, i have been reading this thread with great interest as I have an accelerated possession (no rental arrears) hearing next month, i was not provided with DPS custodial terms within 30 days of the original tenancy dated 30 October 2015.  Does anyone by any chance have a copy of the DPS custodial terms and conditions to upload, which were in operation at that time, it would be greatly appreciated.  Thank  you

https://www.cityblock.co.uk/global/pdf/DPS-terms-and-conditions.pdf

EDIT:

For more info, "DPS_custodial_terms&conditions_Apr2015 V22.0" is the one I linked to. The next version is "DPS_Custodial_terms&conditions_February2018 v23.0".

Quote from: mahira on November 17, 2021, 10:34:56 AM
some development on my case..with LL now reinstating their money claim which had been stuck out..

quick summary before my questions.
1) LL made a ridiculous money claim, even for period after he has taken possession.
2) I made a counter claim for failing to protect my deposit.
3) he makes series of errors resulting in hearing being postponed at couple of times.
4) he fails to pay fee and claim is stuck out, but court also vacates my counterclaim incorrectly.
5) I contact court to get it reinstated.
6) court orders that I am part20 claimant and asks me to file a join bundle and hearing date set for March 2022.
7) Now, it seems claimant has reinstated claim via N244 to set aside order in 4, but the hearing is for Feb 2022.

so my questions are,
a) with his N244 in 7) he has submitted a witness statement, do I need to respond to that?
b) How do I get both hearing on the same day as there are documents common to both hearing and both should be ideally heard together as they were originally meant to.
c) How come LL and his lawyers manage to get a hearing earlier despite filing the N244 after the date was set for my counterclaim?

Thanks in advance.

Regarding the above, I contacted the courts who told me the hearing for N244 by the LL to reinstate the claim had been allocated before my actual hearing as that is the standard practice and they asked me get legal advice.

is there any way now for me to squash the LL N244 to re-instate the original claim ?

If I understand this correctly, the N244 hearing is only to decide whether to re-instate and not about the claim itself?

appreciate if somebody can clarify.

thanks