UK Landlord Forum / Life

We moved into our privately rented home and gave a deposit of 2k (twice rent) - this was two years ago. I have checked and it has not been placed in a scheme.
We asked for a lease and received a six month one, which had been dated 3 months prior and was therefore only a 3 month lease (long since run out)
We were asked to inform the council that we are lodging with the landlord rather than renting as the landlord is not declaring any income.
We have been told that the mould on the walls is because we were not ventilating the property but the reality is we had tiles off the roof for about 6 months over winter so the rooms were wet and damp.

So, what do we do to ensure that when we move eventually we dont end up in a battle for our deposit and do we have any protection with us being registered as lodgers.?

Who are you registered with as lodgers.

The Council have us down as lodgers as the landlord has told them we are living with her -

If you're not living with your landlord, it doesn't really matter what the arrangement is described as. Presumably, the landlord is paying the council tax on the property.

When you move, presumably you are expecting your landlord not to return your deposit. There are two courses of action available to you assuming that is the case.
First of all, you can simply sue the landlord for the money. Thats something you can do mostly online and the  landlord would have to appear in court (with you there) and explain themselves. From the sounds of things, they are unlikely to want to do that.
Alternatively (or even at the same time), you can seek a penalty for the landlord not protecting the deposit - there's a description of how to start this process on the Shelter England website with a helpful template letter. You'd be advised to use a solicitor if the landlord doesn't give in - because the actual claim is quite complicated. There are no win no fee companies who specialise in this type of claim and they may be prepared to take the case.

In both cases, I'd wait until you're safely living somewhere else before taking action.

Thank you so much for your good advice
Despite us being down as lodgers we are in fact paying the Council Tax direct to the landlord
We will most definitely move first before we attempt anything
Regards

There is some kind of fraud going on here and you are unwittingly colluding in it, and allowing it to live on.

Now, one might say - as long as the Council gets the money they're due does it even matter? But do we know that the Council is getting the money they're due or is there some play here on single-occupant discount - either by how you are presenting, or how the Landlord is presenting at where they actually live. I don't know all the ins-and-outs and I've not thought it through in detail either, but I do know that when people start to do unnatural things it's usually 'cos there's some benefit to them - and going hand-in-hand with that some detriment to someone else (whether that someone else is the local Council or HMRC - that really boils down to being all of us). I would be reporting the Landlord - I really would be.

You are right, the whole situation smells really bad and as someone who pays everything legally needed it infuriates me.  We have spoken to the Council and told them but I think they were unsure what they should be doing with the information
I have had lots of messages this week asking to come round and check the house is in the same condition as when we moved in (its actually better) and suggestions we might wish to be moving but I think this is due to prices rocketing in our area, if we move they get to increase the rent.
We are trying to find an alternative rental - as a side question as we dont have a tenancy agreement what notice would we legally be given or because they have us down as lodgers what would be be covered by.?
Thank you for taking the time to help

You are tenants, regardless of the pretence and terminology.
So the landlord has to give you notice as tenants (the Shelter website has details of what they're required to do), but the minimum is usually two months.

However, if the landlord continues to treat you as lodgers (and may actually believe that calling you that makes it so) they can give you "reasonable" notice, which is typically linked to how much rent you pay (weekly rent, a week, monthly rent, monthly etc).

The issue only arises if you don't comply, because then the landlord has to either do something illegal or will start to realise their true situation.

Picking up on your initial post...

Quote from: LifeIsShortEnjoy on July 21, 2023, 11:05:45 PM
We moved into our privately rented home and gave a deposit of 2k (twice rent) - this was two years ago.
I have checked and it has not been placed in a scheme.

Did the landlord really ask for a deposit of twice the rent?  Or was it the value of one month's rent as a deposit plus the first month's rent in advance?

The reason for asking is that a deposit can be a maximum of only 5 weeks rent (see https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/paying_a_tenancy_deposit), so regardless of whether it was protected or not, if you were charged £2k as deposit, then the landlord has again broken the law.

She charged us 2k deposit and in addition out £960 rent for the month - we told her at the time that this was surely not right and were told tough !! About a couple of months later she offered a thousand back if it helped, we wrote back and said yes please and she said no she had changed her mind ! Its been a constant dance the whole tenancy

Quote from: LifeIsShortEnjoy on August 01, 2023, 11:22:54 AM
She charged us 2k deposit and in addition out £960 rent for the month - we told her at the time that this was surely not right and were told tough !! About a couple of months later she offered a thousand back if it helped, we wrote back and said yes please and she said no she had changed her mind ! Its been a constant dance the whole tenancy

Then, once you have left, please make a claim against her for taking excess deposit and for failing to protect your deposit.

You will be entitled to all of your deposit back plus she will be required to pay a penalty to you of between 1 times and 3 times the value of the deposit depending on how wilful the court decides her breaking of the law is.

As an ex-landlord, who played by the rules and tried to be fair to my tenants (as most landlords do), I detest landlords who take unfair advantage of their tenants.

If you need advice on making a claim, please ask here.

I have been doing this Landlord gig over many years, with numerous properties... in all that time, with all those permutations, I have never found myself saying "tough" to a Tenant. And I have had a few choice Tenants in that time.

This is one landlord who really needs to have the book thrown at them.Please on behalf of all decent landlords report this person.You will get advice and support on here if needed.

Thank you all so much for your responses - I will happily come back to the forum, the minute we can move out we will report our landlord.

I know there are some great landlords out there and I really consider myself to be a good tenant - Both hubby and I are late 50s and maintain the house as if it were ours so its a shame that we've just been constantly up against them and tbh watching our backs !!

Regards

Dear All,
Well our landlord visited recently and voiced how they had hoped we were moving on, no we were not but then less than a week later they phoned again asking for an update and picking about things that they said needed to be put right in the house, they weren't offering they were telling us we had to do them (paint ceilings and walls?) at which point I asked if there was an issue, yes I was told and they wanted to move back in themselves.
So, we were given a section 21 notice dated the last day of August.

1.We have a six month agreement dated September 2022 - March 2022 - nothing since or prior - we moved in June 2021
2.Because the council were told we were lodgers (by our landlord) the council returned our payments we had made for council tax - the landlord is now messaging asking us to settle the outstanding council tax bill.  When we took the house on we agreed to pay council tax.
3.The deposit of 2k was never put into a scheme (I've checked recently) I asked the landlord which scheme it was placed in and they ignored the question.

So, we dont have a tenancy, the landlord has told the council we are lodgers but has served us a section 21 and our deposit of 2k is somewhere (they told us in the beginning it was under their bed) but they want us to settle up the council tax bill which is about £900.

I feel inclined to pay the council tax so that from my end of the deal I am all paid up with nothing outstanding at which point when we leave if (i think its going to be when) there is an issue getting the 2k back I can be all above board but hubby is more inclined to argue that it should be deducted from the deposit amount.

I really think the truth is the landlord has spent the deposit and if we give them the council tax money we will essentially be paying ourselves back should they give us anything

As always, any ideas on the route we should take would be really useful

My first reaction would be to contact the council and tell them the whole situation,then see a solicitor about the deposit.You have nothing to lose,21 has been served,and you know that you should be looking for somewhere else to live.You have allowed this to go on too long,time for action.

Council Tax - as a bill in its own right - is one that you should always pay. It's one of the few debts you can actually be imprisoned for (rare, I suppose).

However - even though the Council Tax bill is clearly yours to pay - you've attempted to - and you tell us it's been returned.

If that is the case, you cannot give that money up to someone else to effectively pay on your behalf. Whatever that is - it's not above-board. At the moment the Landlord has the problem they've created.

You don't have the problem - the Council believes that you don't owe the bill. Until their position changes on this matter specifically, don't hand the money over to your Landlord to fraudulently pay it (on your behalf).

So your current stated inclination is totally whack!

Have a go at breaking this down into discrete prioritised problems...

- finding a new place
- council tax
- deposit

Some things need addressing now, others you will have some time to act on (and can do it well after you've settled-in in your new gaff).

You may even arrive at a conclusion whereby... the Council Tax you do owe (in a normal world) and the Deposit amount due you... somehow (I'm not claiming £900 = £2,000) cancel each other out for an easy life and you just move on from this situation having learned a lesson.

It's feasible that there could be Deposit deductions the Landlord would realistically claim if everything was above board - so that would reduce the £2,000 amount. And you are still living there, so that increases the £900 amount.

I'm not making a suggestion here... because there's a lot of intricacies... but I'm thinking aloud (is thinking aloud allowed?) and figuring out that you just want to move on, 'cos it's time to groove on... and I certainly would not be passing over any money in the Landlord's direction - and I wouldn't expect them to be willing to send any money your way either (from what I've read).

I suspect the Landlord's perfect scenario will be one where you send them £900+ for them to pay off the Council Tax bill... they may or may not (let's assume they do)... and then they'll aim to retain all of your £2,000 Deposit and claim it didn't need protecting as you were a Lodger, so they're not even open to a penalty for obvious non-protection.

I can understand this is going to be difficult for you if the Landlord is bullying / combative in nature, but you have to hold onto whatever control points you have.

Please do not forget, mentioned earlier here, that the Deposit you've paid of 2x monthly rent isn't even allowed.

It sounds very likely that they're not declaring income on this,not just evading income tax but also CGT when they come to sell up. No way should you pay the council tax directly them.They sound like real  rogues,but unless they are in the Mafia I don't think you should continue to dance to their tune.I would be letting HMRC know about it as well.Did you get gas/electric certs,or was this another thing that slipped under the net because you are "lodgers!" ?

Thank you so much for all your replies - you must definitely are allowed to think outloud and I found myself agreeing outloud too.

I think the real issue is the landlord likes to have us as tenants or lodgers dependant on what the situation is.  We have no certificates for anything.

We are actively seeking alternative accommodation everyway possible, if its house rental related Im on the site.

Unfortunately, I have been issued with warnings about the family from people who have had previous dealings with them and they are not people that you really want to upset - she has a history of false allegations (all came to light after we moved in).

I am going to find us somewhere, smile and wave for now and then sort her afterwards.

Appreciate your time

Morning - we have managed to find a new home - and sadly still need some advice if anyone is able to help from a landlords perspective

We contacted the Council who intervened with the landlord and insisted she return our deposit as it deemed the Section 21 null and also was not in a scheme.  Since that point we have averaged 2 emails per day from her regarding the property and council tax. I have written to the Council asking for our legal position (tbh hoping they would take away the issue for me) as yet we have not received a reply. The Council tax is an issue as she told them we were lodging with her and so the Council stopped our payments being assigned to the account and charged her.

We moved on Friday and spent a good couple of days cleaning the property so it was ready for the landlord to move back in - the house looked beautiful, i cleaned the sofa and covers and it was sparkling - I took photographs of the building and a video showing how it looked. I made every effort knowing the rocky ending and the likelihood we would encounter something negative from her.

The keys were given back (left for her as she was unable to arrive on time) and since then we have received a barrage of emails and messages stating the house to be filthy and demanding I replace a cushion cover that was frayed - we rented the house as unfurnished but she asked to leave items there rather than move them, one being the sofa.  We covered it with blankets as it was cream but to freshen washed it when leaving and one of the covers was frayed but this was not intentional, just wear and tear - I have no idea how old the sofa was when we moved in two years ago.

I told her that we had moved within a month of the section 21 and felt that we had done everything we possibly could to make it smooth for her to move back in and was simply told she hadnt asked us to go and it was our decision - this is despite being served 2 Section 21 notices - one given on the Monday of the week we were moving out -

I have now blocked her on all avenues as I did write suggesting that neither was gaining anything from the accusations from her and me writing defending her comments and asked she placed all her feelings in letter to my work address (she already knows where I work)

Is there anything else I can do to smooth things over or do i just keep quiet and hope it runs its course ?

Becky

Quote from: LifeIsShortEnjoy on October 10, 2023, 11:51:43 AMIs there anything else I can do to smooth things over or do i just keep quiet and hope it runs its course ?

Given that you're in a position to sue your landlord for anywhere between £4,000 and £12,000 for failing to protect the deposit, I rather think she's the one that needs to keep quiet.

Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't think anything that has been said to you so far on the forum has made a jot of difference. You said on August 2nd "The minute we move out we will report the landlord". Now you just plan to roll over again.

This is not the Kray's gang you are dealing with here, just some grubby little cheating landlord.You could see a solicitor,but I doubt if you will.   

There are some good template letters on the Shelter website that you could use as the basis to demand your deposit back and threaten to make a compensation claim.

If you google "deposit protection claims" you'll find no end of no-win no-fee companies who would probably take on your claim. You won't get as much money as the company will, but that's the route that would probably cost the landlord most.

Or you can just accept the situation and move on with your lives in your new home.

Time to stop responding to any and all communications until you have written one of your own, I believe.

Send the Landlord a proper letter - citing stuff along the lines of "insisted she return our deposit as it deemed the Section 21 null and also was not in a scheme" - and advise you're making a claim for the Deposit not being protected - ensure the Landlord knows the maximum exposure will be 3x the amount of the illegally-high Deposit of £2,000. Tell her you're happy for a Court to decide in due course, based on the evidence, if she doesn't come back with a good faith offer to resolve within that time. What figure would you like? Give her a month to reply to that.

Then proceed onwards if nothing comes of that. There's a process to follow and there's help all the way (here or elsewhere). You could be due a big pay-day just before Christmas.

Quote from: heavykarma on October 10, 2023, 01:41:39 PMForgive me for being blunt, but I don't think anything that has been said to you so far on the forum has made a jot of difference. You said on August 2nd "The minute we move out we will report the landlord". Now you just plan to roll over again.

This is not the Kray's gang you are dealing with here, just some grubby little cheating landlord.You could see a solicitor,but I doubt if you will.   

Oh no not at all, we only moved out this Saturday and handed keys back on the 9th October and Im sat now filling the forms in - Actually, she is part of a really horrible family in Cornwall but that wont put me off -

Quote from: Simon Pambin on October 10, 2023, 01:15:49 PM

Quote from: LifeIsShortEnjoy on October 10, 2023, 11:51:43 AMIs there anything else I can do to smooth things over or do i just keep quiet and hope it runs its course ?

Given that you're in a position to sue your landlord for anywhere between £4,000 and £12,000 for failing to protect the deposit, I rather think she's the one that needs to keep quiet.

I had really hoped that she might but shes not so I am filing the papers now - I like this forum as you get a perspective from the landlord as well as the tenant as it can easily begin to feel like you are in the wrong -

Quote from: Hippogriff on October 11, 2023, 08:21:27 AMTime to stop responding to any and all communications until you have written one of your own, I believe.

Send the Landlord a proper letter - citing stuff along the lines of "insisted she return our deposit as it deemed the Section 21 null and also was not in a scheme" - and advise you're making a claim for the Deposit not being protected - ensure the Landlord knows the maximum exposure will be 3x the amount of the illegally-high Deposit of £2,000. Tell her you're happy for a Court to decide in due course, based on the evidence, if she doesn't come back with a good faith offer to resolve within that time. What figure would you like? Give her a month to reply to that.

Thank you so much for your response I do appreciate it. We have been so lucky to find somewhere so quickly to rent and foolishly I thought she would be thrilled - I love to clean too and the house looked beautiful but some people just cant be pleased - what a sad way to live.

I will be making a claim for the deposit, have given her an address (not new home) to reply to and have asked her to put all comments in letter form to that address.

Regards

Quote from: Hippogriff on October 11, 2023, 08:21:27 AMThen proceed onwards if nothing comes of that. There's a process to follow and there's help all the way (here or elsewhere). You could be due a big pay-day just before Christmas.

Good to hear this, keep us posted and stick to your guns.