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Tenant claiming me for not registering deposit

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« on: February 18, 2020, 03:37:42 PM »

Hi David, all

What a great thing finding you, I'm greatly encouraged you may be able to help me please. Hopefully this will help others too.
I've had a letter from Johnson and Boon, with a Part 36 offer, I'll relate the circumstances.
I let out to tenants on STA on Feb 22nd 2019 with a 660 deposit with them knowing it was just for a short time as I was going to be demolishing most of their accommodation then selling, which I've since done. They came from the Crisis team locally so I wanted to help them in their difficult circumstances.
I was a dutiful landlord in difficult circumstances.
I didn't register their deposit as I knew it was very short term, silly me, I know now.
They left end of Oct 2019 with which I returned their full deposit, I even paid them 268 in cash with them signing for it as proof before they left to help them out of the financial hole they were in, then the balance of 392 by BACS.
Out of the blue, some 4 months later I get letter from J&B demanding compensation of 3 times the deposit twice as the STA ended on Aug 22, 6 months, so it amounted to 2 transgressions, and also the 268 which they claim I didn't pay, which I have proof I did as well as texts as proof, amounting to a ridiculous 4,228 (660x3, 660x3, 268), though it can get resolved with a 'generous' Part 36 offer of 2,908 plus J&B costs of 345.60.
Naturally I'm really concerned, I haven't got any money to pay them whilst the house lies empty and up for sale.
I was shocked after reading the site and blogs how widespread this is, I know I'm in the wrong though that's hard to accept after doing the right things and being a good landlord, some small consolation, and hopeful that I can get help to resolve this matter to a reasonable financial amount.
Thanks in advance for any help David.
P.S. I've got to reply to J&B by Friday 21 February. Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2020, 04:08:24 PM »

Did you set up a new AST in August? From what you say I doubt it.If not,I don't think they can claim for the periodic time remaining (?) .You were a silly sausage that's for sure.Unfortunately the law is pretty clear that regardless of the circumstances,you will owe at least 1xdeposit.I would reply to the ambulance chasers,enclosing all proof of money given back to them,and tell them you will vigorously refuse to pay more than 660,and that you doubt a court would award more.They may decide it is not worth pursuing.I know some may say offer more,but if your account is true you meant no wrong,and they were not left owed money.Good luck!  "No Good Turn goes Unpunished"-Oscar Wilde.
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2020, 04:18:11 PM »

Personally, knowing you are in the wrong (as you say), I would forget about any notion of getting away with this without incurring any damage. I would figure out what your high water mark is (probably the sum of 4,228 or thereabouts), what the low water mark is (hint: it's not 0) and figure out where, based on their generous offer you would like to try and land. That might be based on some pragmatic sums... or what you think you can afford. Regardless of what you choose, I would not choose to disregard the communication as you probably don't want to end up in a Court situation. No matter how many good intentions you may have had - the black-and-white facts (you didn't protect the Deposit, possibly twice) will result in an open-and-shut case. All the details behind when, why and who don't really matter when it comes down to it - what matters is whether you took a Deposit and whether you protected it correctly and on time.

The answers appear to be "yes" and subsequently "no". The reply back to the Solicitors could be a counter-offer that is equivalent to 1x the deposit x 2, plus costs... so something like 660 x 2 + 345? Other than that you could say to them - "I'll take my chances that any Court would impose the minimum penalty on me"... you could even try 1 x 660 + 345. From reading here previously I believe the Part 36 offer remains open for a period of time and you can wriggle-around a little bit, making counters, and the only risk is that the costs of the other side increase as time goes by.

It looks like the 2,908 + 345 = 3,253 is composed of... what? ...is 2x x 2. Yeah. Dead middle. I thought it would be reasonable to suggest 1x x 2.
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2020, 04:24:05 PM »

Demand in front of you:

   660 + 660 + 660 + 660 + 660 + 660 + 268 + 345 = should be 4,573 (I assume they're not adding costs to that?)

The offer in front of you:

   660 + 660 + 660 + 660 + 268 + 345 = 3,253 (bird in the hand)

The offer of 1x, while accepting costs and missing money:

   660 + 660 + 268 + 345 = 1,933

Offer of 1x, not accepting missing money:

   660 + 660 + 345 = 1,655

I would be interested to hear if you get it lower. Possibly by going for 1x x 1:

   660 + 345 = 1,005
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2020, 08:44:07 PM »

If there was a fixed term that then went statutory periodic, that's two tenancies, so yes two breaches and the resulting two penalties.

As the landlord never protected the deposit, the penalties are almost certainly going to be more than the minimum 1x. If landlording is not the landlord's main source of income, profession etc. you can argue some mitigation. Also deposit was returned promptly etc. So probably somewhere in the middle, and as a judge once told me, the middle of 1 and 3 is 2x, though 1.5x would also be possible. Against that, the longer this goes on, and each back and forth with the other side's lawyer is going to increase the cost.

If you have evidence that the deposit was returned in full, do of course challenge that. Nothing stopping you from making a counter offer and explicitly saying you want to treat the two issue seperately.

Make an offer and settle. Whether that's 1.5x * 2 + 345, or 2x * 2 + 345.
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2020, 09:18:56 PM »

Is it the case then that legal costs are automatically added by the court,even if the rest is on the lenient side of 1x deposit?
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2020, 09:58:50 PM »

For high value cases, there's detailed assessment, cost budgeting, possibly seperate proceedings in front of a cost judge.

Even for lower value cases on summary assessment, the parties are required to file with court and serve on each other what their cost are and for what before the trial.

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Each party who intends to claim costs must prepare a written statement of those costs showing separately in the form of a schedule .......... The failure by a party, without reasonable excuse, to comply with paragraph 9.5 will be taken into account by the court in deciding what order to make about the costs of the claim, hearing or application, and about the costs of any further hearing or detailed assessment hearing that may be necessary as a result of that failure.
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 10:01:20 PM »

Is it the case then that legal costs are automatically added by the court,even if the rest is on the lenient side of 1x deposit?

If what you were asking is whether the tenant will definitely get cost awarded. The answer is going to be yes. They won. Absent misbehaviour by them, the general principle that the winner get their cost back is going to apply. The claim form is not going to be written in such a way that they're asking for an exact sum of 3x (times however many tenancies) so the losing side can argue that the tenant didn't win most/all of their claim. It's going to be written as "we claim two penalties, the law state it must be between 1x-3x. ..." so when they win they've won the whole of their claim whatever the amount awarded is.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 10:04:31 PM by KTC »
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2020, 10:40:48 AM »

It sounds like the lawyers have nothing to lose by pursuing all cases brought to them,a bit of time and a letter.The law is the law,but I don't think the first offence should incur more than 1x deposit.especially where all money was returned at end of tenancy.I add that I have never failed to protect deposits,and have only held back money in a few instances to cover rent and serious  damage.
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2020, 07:46:14 AM »

Hi All

Thank you for your feedback and advice, very much appreciated.

After much reading and thought it's very clear to me, as written in the forum, I have 4 choices; ignore it, pay their demand, court or negotiate, it's got to be negotiate.

I'm going to submit a reply to J&B along the lines of the Negotiation Letter 1 adding that the deposit was paid in full, that I have signed proof and texts to verify that. This is a weak spot in their claim against my wrong, I actually paid them an upfront payment of 268 two weeks before they vacated of part of their deposit, to help them out as they had financial difficulties as I had a good relationship with them.

I'm going to draft a letter now and post here, any feedback and advice is again greatly appreciated, thank you.

James PP
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2020, 08:37:43 AM »

Dear

I was most perturbed to receive your letter before action considering I felt that we had a good Landlord and Tenant relationship, with no major problems on either side.
To be honest I was in complete astonishment and surprise because your letter before action was not preceded by any claim, nor any suggestion of mediation.

Re. the claim of not returning the full deposit, has it slipped your mind that I advanced you the sum of 268 before I forwarded you the remaining balance, balance paid in full, of 392 when you vacated the property?
I done this as I wanted to help, I seen them as good people, I trusted them.
I have signed proof from, witnessed, and texts to back it up, 2 payments of 100 on the 14th and 18th October 2019. This was to assist them with kennels fees for their dog Dave, which they were very grateful to receive, with a further 68, again signed by and witnessed.

Re. the second claim, knew the property was only a very short term accommodation, as I was in the process of selling, until they found something permanent, they came from the Crisis Team after all.
They informed me numerous times that they were leaving long before the 6 months.
They were aware of structural changes that were needed that would make their stay longer impossible, to meet the end of putting the property up for sale, which I've since done.

I do regard this threat of legal action as vexatious and without merit, but I would like to keep things amicable and avoid wasting the Courts time. I am reliably informed that a Judge would view this for what it is; a frivolous attempt to extort money from me, using their Court in an inappropriate way.

At this stage I would like to ask you to reconsider your proposed Court action and agree a settlement with me; that being a positive letter of reference and the sum of 500 as a gesture of good will with no liability accepted as full and final settlement of this matter.

I hope that you give this kind offer your serious consideration.

Yours sincerely,

James PP.
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2020, 08:55:56 AM »

Very 'chatty' and familiar. No-one will be interested in this. Stick to the facts... amounts, dates, evidence... commentary about it being vexatious is clearly wrong, right? ;-) You're in the wrong here. You've accepted that, you just want to minimise your exposure. The ex-Tenant is actually only doing what any Tenant should when they find out their Landlord breaks the law... teach them a lesson (one they won't forget). Why your offer is "kind" I'm not clear... isn't is less than 1x, or are you banking on the 268 or no Solicitor fees being applied? Do the ex-Tenants need a reference? They've already left... surely that's of zero value? Personally - I'd rework. Thoughts from others?
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2020, 08:59:00 AM »

BTW, your comment about the Court's opinion... you realise you're writing to a Solicitor, yeah? They know you will lose any case. You know this. The Court wouldn't see it as a frivolous attempt from their side... they'd be looking at you, asking why you didn't negotiate in good faith! Anyway, best of luck. Fingers-crossed.
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2020, 09:35:09 AM »

Thanks Hippogriff

I used the template of the 1st negotiation letter.

I addressed it to tenants as I wanted it to come across as personal, that we had a good relationship, I omitted the tenants names for privacy here.

Yeah offer is below 1 x, as per negotiation, they're 2,640 at the moment.

As I've proof that I've paid the 268 I'm not taking that into consideration.

Solicitor fees are 345, I need to pay them, I'll mention that.

I'll redo and post.

Thanks for your input Hippogriff.

James PP
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2020, 09:38:20 AM »

I was most perturbed to receive your letter before action considering I felt that we had a good Landlord and Tenant relationship, with no major problems on either side.
To be honest I was in complete astonishment and surprise because your letter before action was not preceded by any claim, nor a Part 36 offer of settlement, nor any suggestion of mediation.
I do regard this threat of legal action as vexatious and without merit, but I would like to keep things amicable and avoid wasting the Courts time. I am reliably informed that a Judge would view this for what it is; a frivolous attempt to extort money from me, using their Court in an inappropriate way.
At this stage I would like to ask you to reconsider your proposed Court action and agree a settlement with me; that being a positive letter of reference and the sum of [insert low-ball offer, less than half of 1x deposit] as a gesture of good will with no liability accepted as full and final settlement of this matter.
I hope that you give this kind offer your serious consideration.
Yours sincerely,
[Landlord]

This is negotiation letter number 1, as per site, from David.
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2020, 09:56:01 AM »

Dear Tenants,

I was most perturbed to receive your letter before action considering I felt that we had a good Landlord and Tenant relationship, with no major problems on either side.
To be honest I was in complete astonishment and surprise because your letter before action was not preceded by any claim, nor any suggestion of mediation.

Re. the claim of not returning the full deposit, has it slipped your mind that I advanced you the sum of 268 before I forwarded you the remaining balance, balance paid in full, of 392 when you vacated the property?
I done this as I wanted to help Tenants, I seen them as good people, I trusted them.
I have signed proof, witnessed, and texts to back it up, 2 payments of 100 on the 14th and 18th October 2019. This was to assist them with kennels fees for their dog, which they were very grateful to receive, with a further 68, again signed and witnessed.

Re. the second claim, it was known the property was only a very short term accommodation, as I was in the process of selling, until they found something permanent, they came from the Crisis Team after all.
They informed me numerous times that they were leaving long before the 6 months.
They were aware of structural changes that were needed that would make their stay longer impossible, to meet the end of putting the property up for sale, which I've since done.

I would like to keep things amicable and avoid wasting the Courts time. I am reliably informed a Judge would view this for what it is; an attempt to extort money from me, their Court should be used in a more appropriate way.

At this stage I would like to ask you to reconsider your proposed Court action and agree a settlement with me; that being a positive letter of reference and the sum of 500, and legal fees of 345.60, as a gesture of good will with no liability accepted as full and final settlement of this matter.

I hope that you give this offer your serious consideration.

Yours sincerely,

James Polding.
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2020, 10:29:12 AM »

You have to start somewhere, I accept that and at least you're not burying your head in the sand... which I applaud. I think a point was made that the longer this goes on the more fees might rack up on the opposing side. It's OK for you, you're doing your own legwork... but best to calculate-out, now, what you actually can swallow if you decide to short-circuit to the end.

I might well be wrong... because I've not followed that example letter in great detail... but it might be actually aimed more at feckless ex-Tenants who might have just taken a punt at something heard down the pub and be totally ecstatic at any offer coming their way... jumping on it immediately... once the 'professionals' are involved, you can be sure that there's at least been a conversation where the Solicitor has said "you're guaranteed at least 1x, nothing less"... and advised the ex-Tenants that you are totally on the back foot... which, to be fair, you are.
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2020, 10:35:16 AM »

What I don't like about this low-ball suggestion (less than half the Deposit) is the intimation it casts doubt over you... in that you come across as though you've not done your research and aren't aware of the 1x. When dealing with people I prefer to give them the impression(!) I have done my research and know what I'm talking about... so you know that if it reaches Court and it's assessed there's 1 or 2 tenancies you will be penalised at least 1x per tenancy. Yes, you have a bit to take off any total. But do you think the rounded-up figure of 500 makes any sense, per se?

Surely... a Deposit amount minus 268, then plus the fees, would read better?

Also, I still don't understand the reference part. The reference is whether they were good Tenants, or not... not whether they shafted you after the tenancy because you didn't adhere to your legal obligations. I am feeling uneasy about this linkage you're creating... and whether the carrot of a reference is even a carrot at all.
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2020, 11:10:13 AM »

Ah, I see the reference now, I'll delete that, thanks.

Yeah I understand re. coming across as knowing what I'm taking, the 660 as 1 x, I done the 500 as a start point in negotiations.

I'm leaning towards 660 and the relevance of it.

Yeah re. consequences of legal fees rising.

Thanks Hippogriff for your valuable feedback and points, much appreciated.

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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2020, 09:08:04 PM »

I addressed it to tenants as I wanted it to come across as personal, that we had a good relationship, I omitted the tenants names for privacy here.

You can make the same points, but you're not writing it to the tenant, you're writing it to their legal rep, so address it to whoever is actually receiving and reading your letter.

Your latest version have half of it written in the second person, and the other half in third person.

Quote
To be honest I was in complete astonishment and surprise because your letter before action was not preceded by any claim, nor any suggestion of mediation.

The whole point of a LBA is that it raises the fact that there's dispute, and hopefully discussion and settlement before a court claim is needed. You're effectively asking for a letter before a letter before action.

Quote
I am reliably informed a Judge would view this for what it is; an attempt to extort money from me

 :o It's ..... not .... extortion .....  :o

It's probably best not to accuse someone, through a 3rd party, of a criminal offence 1) when it's not, and 2) when you're in the wrong here. They're literally following the process set out in law to enforce a statutory penalty for which you are liable and they are entitled to.

Quote
and the sum of 500, and legal fees of 345.60

You're offering 500 when they're legally entitled to at least 1,320 (and after accusing them of extortion at that)? What do you seriously think their response is going to be other than increasing their existing cost from dealing with your letter and responding to it or issuing the claim at court?
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2020, 07:32:10 AM »

Thanks KTC, I appreciate your points, I'm a novice here and going on the little I had read, I'll modify the letter, I see the sense in it, the last thing I want is to come across wrong, I'm already in a situation I don't like.

Re. my offer what do you think is appropriate? I was going on what I read re. their high ball countered by my low ball, I adjusted my letter to 660, I'll post my up to date letter now.

Thanks KTC, more help and others help greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2020, 08:02:14 AM »

Dear Johnson & Boon,

I was most perturbed to receive your letter before action considering I felt that we had a good Landlord and Tenant relationship, with no major problems on either side, no mention or conversation of a claim, no mediation.

Re. the claim of not returning the full deposit, has it slipped the Tenants mind that I advanced them 2 weeks before they vacated the sum of 268?
This was done to help the Tenants as they said they were in financial difficulties.
I have signed proof, witnessed, and texts to back this up, 2 payments of 100 on the 14th and 18th October 2019, 1 payment of 68 on the 4th November 2019.

Re. the second claim, it was known the property was only a very short term accommodation, as I was in the process of selling, until they found something permanent, they came from the Crisis Team after all.
The Tenants informed me numerous times that they were leaving long before the 6 months.
They were aware of structural changes that were needed that would make their stay longer impossible, to meet the end of putting the property up for sale, which I've since done and can prove.

I would like to keep things amicable and avoid wasting the Courts time, it should be used in a more appropriate way.

At this stage I would like to ask you to reconsider your proposed Court action and agree a settlement with me; the sum of 660, plus legal fees of 345.60, as a gesture of good will with no liability accepted as full and final settlement of this matter.

I hope that you give this offer your serious consideration.

Yours sincerely,

James
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2020, 01:04:15 PM »

You may have sent this... and it's really no great shakes... but I wanted to say that your letter contains lots of unnecessary stuff... they don't care if the ex-Tenants knew the let would be short-term, where they came from, or whether you've sold the house, and can prove it. It's all just noise at the end of the day. I think your thinking is - somewhat understandably - not clear on this matter. It's like you're trying to muddy the waters with extra 'stuff' - but if a Solicitor has to pick through your letter for what matters... ain't that just gonna take them longer? Anyway... as I say... no great shakes... but you need to distill things down to what really matters here... the existence of a Deposit, the Deposit amount, the number of tenancies, what money has been repaid and when etc. - [perceived] good relationships aren't relevant, you being perturbed certainly isn't, no previous mention of claim isn't really interesting (they have years to do this), reasons for any advance aren't pertinent - just that money was given back (hopefully)... please come back and let us know what the response is when you get one. It may be over - but I don't feel as though it is.
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2020, 02:29:42 PM »

I can understand why you feel there are mitigating circumstances,and hope that mentioning them will have some effect.The people you are dealing with don't have the same moral compass,they just want to shaft you,and the fact that you have tried to behave decently maybe actually increases their pleasure and sense of power.Do as Hippogriff says,he knows his stuff.Good luck,you have been unlucky.
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2020, 07:45:33 PM »

I'm not so fuss with such a letter mentioning what the LL/LA feels are mitigating circumstances as those does affect the potential size of the penalty a court may award if it gets that far. Appealing to the tenant could work, the lawyer may give advice, ultimately the decision to accept or decline an offer come down to the client. What mentioning mitigating circumstances get you, though normally more explicitly mentioned, is an argument of "due to all this factors, the court would only award the lower end of the penalty which mean there's a good/higher chance that you won't beat the offer in court, thus making you liable for (most of the) cost even if you win".
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2020, 09:32:06 PM »

JOHNSON & BOON

I was taken to court by J&B for a tenant who left without notice ensuring i never returned deposit.

She knew i hadn't protected her deposit. It was room only 180 deposit & it cost me 4980 through the courts with J&B going for 6x the deposit.

I got a barrister involved to dispute the 6x to be 3x and i lost.

Be careful with J&B as they specialise in these types of cases.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2020, 08:09:49 AM »

Thank you for all your replies and the information it provides, really grateful.

I'm getting help on email from a forum member, David, who I originally read of when searching online for a solution, he's been very informative and helpful and has experience dealing with J&B.

Any other input is greatly appreciated, I'll keep thread posted of progress as we go and ultimately the results, thank you.
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2020, 12:53:19 PM »

Hi All

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I've been emailing David, as per last post, though I'm clearly struggling to give him the files and docs in the way he requires, I can understand his frustration, it's very complicated to me as a builder. He's very busy helping others and he is helping me off his own back though I think he's lost patience with me and doesn't quite believe what I say.

Long and short of it is I don't have a copy of the lease I issued, I've misplaced it when I recently moved and I can't find it, the tenant does have a copy.

I've no written communication with the tenants when they moved in and when I asked them to move out, the only written communication I have is with the Crisis team who were helping them when they moved in to give them the Gas and Electric Safety Certificates. I met the tenants through other people who stayed in the building.
I've got written, signed and witnessed proof the deposit was paid back in full, they're claiming I didn't pay back in full.

Obviously, as per read here on the forum I don't want this to go to court.

What's the best course of action in my circumstances?

All help and advice very appreciated, thank you.

James PP.

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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2020, 10:01:55 AM »

The best course of action is still the same, sadly... you need to be negotiating in good faith towards a settlement. Did you send your letter to the Solicitor / ex-Tenant? If you did then the ball is in their court currently... as they demanded a response and you've given them one... hopefully that means they might come back at some point? I'm not personally au fait with the process - but someone else on here will be. However... if I recall correctly... wasn't the Part 36 Offer for the maximum penalty you would be given at Court, anyway?

First things first... did you actually send your letter, when and what was your confirmed position in that letter?
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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2020, 10:09:17 AM »

P.S. - the forum does not give the user David any special mark of approval or quality. He operates on here, I believe, freely and - importantly - for-free... but I have no understanding of his engagement or his success(es). Only he would know of this. The members of the forum won't cast doubt on him either... as we've certainly not had anyone saying he is on the make or scamming anyone. It may well be the case that your situation is dire - in that you appear to have little evidence to back up your claims... in that situation, you really do need to be negotiating fervently for something that you accept is going to be >0... and hopefully less than you can handle... best strategy?

Get to a point where this is water-under-the-bridge ASAP. You don't want it hanging over you for extended periods of time if you can help it. Only you understand your financial situation and what you can stomach. You have already said - you don't want to go to Court. I wholeheartedly agree.
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