UK Landlord Forum / Life

I can't help but feel totally violated! I'm almost 100% sure the council have advised my tenant to sit their and await eviction. This could possibly put myself and family under great pressure when I know the tenant is down the pub most nights. This is going to be hard to swallow. Feel I've been robbed. Especially hard as I know where he drinks.

Violated? Really?

There's no point getting het up over what the council may or may not have told your tenant. Get Alice to end the tenancy and point out to Bob that you'll be claiming mesne profits equivalent to double the rent, through the courts if necessary, if he doesn't leave by the due date. The truth is he's probably not got enough assets to be worth suing from a purely financial point of view but the prospect of a big fat CCJ on his record can be a big persuader.

I can't lie yes I feel violated. This is my only property and it was rented so I can move in with my GF. I guess if you are a landlord with a bigger portfolio this is part and part of it. I also feel annoyed and letting this happen, certainly allowing Bob on the agreement. Anyway thanks again for the reply Simon. What are MESNE profits?

It makes no odds if you've got one property or you own half of Kensington: getting emotional gets you nowhere. For what it's worth, my property portfolio consists of the home I lived in before I got married. The last tenants have just left it like a pigsty. Do I let that bother me? No: what would be the point?

Mesne profits are the compensation you're entitled to when a former tenant doesn't leave after the tenancy has ended. They're not rent - because rent is what tenants pay, and the person isn't your tenant any more - but they look a bit like it. Where a tenant has ended the tenancy and doesn't leave, mesne profits double.

Here's one I nicked from Hippogriff:  https://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/rents/introduction_to_rents/payments_after_tenancy_ends

It probably won't help much, but I'm feeling pretty abused too.. my tenant simply won't pay rent or reply to letters delivered by hand ( with a witness ) text messages ( spaced apart to avoid "harassment" charges) and telephone calls ( equally spaced out and only made during office hours ).

I've issued a S21 and, although I would prefer it to be amicable, maybe even unnecessary and certainly avoidable, I feel we will be needing the lawyers out soon because the Local Housing dept' will advise her to stay in until eviction.. They probably won't tell her that I can, and will, persue her for all costs and lost income, damages and interest but some people just hear what they want to hear...

It's a horrible feeling but it comes with the job I suppose.. Try to focus on the period after you receive the keys back and not the dramas along the way..it works for me..almost..

That's a really nice reply Bloo, and very much needed. I guess I feel like this as I have been very helpful to them. I've been a top landlord and always done everything they asked. I guess it's because I got to know them (bad mistake) and feel like what's the point in being nice to people? Some people see it as a weakness and I suppose it is, which is kind of depressing for society! Teach me for being nice I guess. It won't happen again. However I am tempted to go where he drinks and have a little word.

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 10, 2019, 02:17:31 PM
However I am tempted to go where he drinks and have a little word.

That little word is harassment. Don't do it: you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot.

You're fretting about all these things - he won't leave, he won't pay any more rent, he's going to trash the place - before they happen. (Admittedly, last month's rent was light but that's down to both tenants, not just him.)

Get the notice served and be prepared, but don't try to jump your fences until you get to them. If your tenant leaves next week then you'll have given yourself a stomach ulcer for nothing.

No,for God's sake don't confront him in the pub-he would love that.It is infuriating I know,but you have to do everything by the book.We all have different temperaments.Some are very sanguine about things like this,and are well suited to be landlords.Others,like me,are more easily worried,and it can be very hard not to fret.I can promise you one thing,it is a joyful experience when you see the back of a lousy tenant.Don't let this make you bitter,the good guys greatly outnumber the scumbags.Good luck!     

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 10, 2019, 02:17:31 PM
That's a really nice reply Bloo, and very much needed. I guess I feel like this as I have been very helpful to them. I've been a top landlord and always done everything they asked. I guess it's because I got to know them (bad mistake) and feel like what's the point in being nice to people? Some people see it as a weakness and I suppose it is, which is kind of depressing for society! Teach me for being nice I guess. It won't happen again. However I am tempted to go where he drinks and have a little word.

Always remember that there are, at least, two sides to every story. Always remember that everyone is subjective about their experience (good Landlord, good Tenant, good curry) and anything can change at any moment. This business is a people business and people have always been more difficult than bricks and mortar. Don't ever conclude that you must never be this way again! You must. Why? Because this is you! Sure, you can learn, but you cannot change. You should not change! Changing is giving-in, it's not learning. If you know, in your heart, that you're decent then take a certain, resigned and painful?, pride in that... and be prepared to be taken advantage of every now and again... don't become a twat!

The world surely has enough twats?

Quote from: Hippogriff on September 10, 2019, 08:05:00 PM

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 10, 2019, 02:17:31 PM
That's a really nice reply Bloo, and very much needed. I guess I feel like this as I have been very helpful to them. I've been a top landlord and always done everything they asked. I guess it's because I got to know them (bad mistake) and feel like what's the point in being nice to people? Some people see it as a weakness and I suppose it is, which is kind of depressing for society! Teach me for being nice I guess. It won't happen again. However I am tempted to go where he drinks and have a little word.

Always remember that there are, at least, two sides to every story. Always remember that everyone is subjective about their experience (good Landlord, good Tenant, good curry) and anything can change at any moment. This business is a people business and people have always been more difficult than bricks and mortar. Don't ever conclude that you must never be this way again! You must. Why? Because this is you! Sure, you can learn, but you cannot change. You should not change! Changing is giving-in, it's not learning. If you know, in your heart, that you're decent then take a certain, resigned and painful?, pride in that... and be prepared to be taken advantage of every now and again... don't become a twat!

The world surely has enough twats?

I agree with a lot of what you say here Hippogriff, and I was trying to cut one line out for a reply but, clearly, I am incapable of anything technical....

Anyway, you're right and drama's with letting out property shouldn't change us, it's all just part of the job... It is difficult not to have dark thoughts when tenants take advantage of empathy and understanding though. And the law seems almost set up to make it very difficult to end a process of litigation amicably.

I'm going through a range of emotions I never knew I possessed with one tenant and I have reluctantly decided to press the S21 to conclusion due to their complete refusal to respond with anything but lame excuses while continuing to claim Housing Benefit and failing to pay rent. I don't enjoy the admission that trying to be fair has probably cost me quite a lot of time, money and pride, but I won't forget the lesson.. I don't know if this has changed me for the better or worse, but it has probably made me more professional about working with people..

 

Again thanks for the positive replies. I will try and learn from this. I'm battling with intense anger and then feel like a failure I guess. Annoyingly the bloke who is likely to cause me problems wasn't even on the agreement at first. I added him at a later date. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even have a copy of the contract! I'm tempted to call his bluff and say your not even on it! As I have the original sole agreement somewhere. I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell it now. Then I'll be subject to capital gains tax!!! Gotta love our government.

Bear in mind the bloke has just broken up with his girlfriend and is about to lose his home. Do you have a plan for when you break up with your girlfriend and lose your home? Probably not. Can we therefore consider the possibility that Bob also doesn't have a plan for this scenario and is upset, scared and winging it?

At the moment, he's still legitimately your tenant, with every right to be living in your property. That will continue to be the case until you bring the tenancy to a legal end. What you need to do is make it easy for him to do the right thing. Provide clarity: it'll be expensive for him if he stays, but you can help him with moving on. Be the good shepherd. Shepherd him all the way out of the door.

That's what Jesus would do.

Yeah your right Simon. That's what I'm going to do. Be as helpful as possible. Just one question during one of the text messages Bob sent he asked for confirmation to be taken off the agreement. Do you think I should do this? Before the 17th? That's the final day of the rolling month and the day he has said (allegedly) he will be moving out. Will it make any difference?

As I understand it, you can't just knock one tenant of a joint tenancy: when one tenant gives notice, the whole tenancy comes to an end, and then you start a new agreement with the remaining tenant(s) if you and they want to.

Ok, I've just dug out the text message. This is what i received late one night:

"Yes, I will still be leaving on the 17th sppetember 2019 by midnight.
I will be leaving any damages and cleanliness to alice to sort as she said she would.
I will not be paying the full rent arrears as me and Alice never agreed that, I will be paying 162 pounds for my half of the arrears and would like to send you this direct from my bank.

Thank you for understanding this situation. Please know alice has made it worse by demanding stuff off me about the house.

I will need a letter of confirmation in writing to state you accept this"

So if I were to go in and change the locks on the 18th, would that be legal? 

I know this is not helpful, but I know what you are going through. I recently regained possession of the house that my late wife and I lived in and the tenants had not treated it well. Somehow they have burnt holes in the carpet, damaged the bath, and left more than this keeps worth of rubbish. It's hard not to become emotionally attached and like you, I'm trying to decide whether I now sell the property or rent through a different agent (The current agent seems determined to side with the tenants; they told me that I cannot claim for from the deposit for the carpet even though I've been told that this is not the case).

My point being, you are not alone in your feelings of being violated in this instance. I get the impression that everything is set up in favour of the tenants when both parties need to be protected. I wish you luck and hope your situation gets sorted out soon.

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 11, 2019, 05:21:05 PM

So if I were to go in and change the locks on the 18th, would that be legal?

No, it would be an illegal eviction. If you just had the one tenant and it wasn't contentious and it was clear that they'd left and you couldn't get anything in writing, that would be one thing, but why risk relying on a late night drunk text  when you can do it by the book?

Like my lawyer said to me about my heroin addict tenant that was next door to me.  Stay professional and DON'T HIT HIM!!!

It was very hard going and coming home from work having to smile and not show any emotion when the t**t wasn't paying any money and ruining the place.  But eventually I got rid of him.  It was very tempting to punch him but it will just make things worse for you not them.  Avoid your tenant at all costs.  I felt violated but what could I physically do about it?  1 night I almost changed the locks but I stopped myself from more trouble.

Update. The guy moved out. Many thanks to all that commented offering advice. Really appreciated. The female has moved back in and I'm expecting more delayed payments and excuses but it will be a lot better than going through the courts. Cheers guys.

The only concern is he's apparently hanging around outside. Now he's moved out is there anything I need to do to make sure he doesn't let himself back in?

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 19, 2019, 09:02:11 PMThe only concern is he's apparently hanging around outside.

Whose concern? Not yours, I'd say.

If she is being stalked, that's a matter for her, not for you. She can take whatever action she deems appropriate, or not. How do you even know this - are you hanging around outside too? You really shouldn't do that... quiet enjoyment and all that. 

Never get involved in Tenant disputes.
Never get involved with neighbours (disputes, gossip, well-intentioned spying).

Quote from: Blueridgehotel on September 19, 2019, 09:02:11 PM
The only concern is he's apparently hanging around outside. Now he's moved out is there anything I need to do to make sure he doesn't let himself back in?

Bearing in mind this is the same tenant who you were convinced was going to refuse to leave and trash the place, you might try giving him the benefit of the doubt this time. 

The way I see it, if you'd changed the locks while property was empty, then that could have been construed as unlawful eviction. However, now that Alice is back in the house, if she wants to change the locks then she's perfectly entitled to do so as far as you're concerned: any fallout is between her and Bob.

Have you received written notice to end the joint tenancy yet so that you can start a fresh one in dues course with Alice as the sole tenant?

That's the thing apart from him moving out and she moving back in. It's still exactly the same contract as I have not received anything in writing. I don't really want to give her another contract as she is sporadic in payments, yet I want him off it. The thing is, I think he's slightly illiterate, so when it comes to paperwork he finds it hard. They also hate each other with a passion. I just want to get it where he's off the agreement and she's on a rolling as I don't trust her for another 6 months.