UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hello all, I would be very grateful for any help. Situation is the tenancy ended over a week ago, I requested the release of the deposit and have received the following email from the landlord. Is anyone able to make any sense of it?

------------

The property was returned in exceptional order its what one would be fortunate to receive, it absolutely shone and is a reflection of the occupant, completely remarked.

Therefore there are no claims on inventory. There would be no dispute arising from a claim on the inventory and no reason to refer to alternative dispute resolution arising from a dispute on the inventory. At the earliest we would be seeking to release the deposit promptly.

However Its' been realised that the property was sublet from valuation with rogue agents. In the old days pre my deposit where agents are rogue and there is evidence of subletting the Landlord keeps the deposit and the agent operating in a known sub context and practices will return money.

In 2019 the Tenants Fee Ban Act became law which removes the Tenant entirely from paying lettings fees. However the Tenants Fee Ban was in fact applied by local agents from 2014.

In reality of a subletted lettings environment it timed the payment of letting services by the landlord as paid by the Tenant by legal definition and land law (Tenancy Agreement of England and Wales,) regardless of the fee,  Act of Parliament or lettings environment that the Tenant paid fees entirely at the time despite the fact this was paid by the landlord (subletting, binding.)

The first months rental income and normal Tenancy Agreement is reversed to apply notice of the Tenancy Agreement across a path of legal timing (disposal,) leaving a shortfall or gap when notice of contract is given in normal course as the start of the Tenancy. This timing coincides with the same legal timing as release of deposit.

Ordinarily the 12 months and deposit was paid normally but the Landlord has received 12 months minus one month rent (11 months,) where the fixed contract period is applied, not rolling. To balance this the Landlord must be evident to receive twelve months rent to return the deposit (subletting,) promptly.

The matter for this reason only will be referred to the ADR or AVR if applicable.

Nope. That is complete gibberish.

They're trying, very hard, to baffle you with bullshit (and that's what it is)... but the gist seems to be that the Landlord thinks they didn't get their rent, and that you scarpered without paying the last month. Did you?

Seems unlikely... but should be easy to settle, one way or the other.

I say gist, because - well - it's not exactly easy to read or clear in any way. It would sound very impressive to a numbskull.

Some kind of AI?

Quote from: Hippogriff on November 15, 2024, 12:24:56 PMThey're trying, very hard, to baffle you with bullshit (and that's what it is)... but the gist seems to be that the Landlord thinks they didn't get their rent, and that you scarpered without paying the last month. Did you?

Seems unlikely... but should be easy to settle, one way or the other.

I say gist, because - well - it's not exactly easy to read or clear in any way. It would sound very impressive to a numbskull.

No I did not. I can only hope that mydeposits see it for the nonsense that it is and return my deposit.

They must be deranged.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PMHello all, I would be very grateful for any help. Situation is the tenancy ended over a week ago, I requested the release of the deposit and have received the following email from the landlord. Is anyone able to make any sense of it?

Let's entertain this crap for a nanosecond so we can work out a stonking great deposit protection claim.

When did you pay your deposit?

What was the Start Date of the first Tenancy?

What was the initial fixed term of the first Tenancy?

Were further Tenancy Agreements entered into after that 1st one, if so on what dates (approximately)?

Who is the person who replied to you (Landlord, Agent, or what?

Were they the person you paid the deposit to?

Who is listed as the owner of the property on £3 title deed search at Land Registry?

When was the last time this property was sold (on Title deed) ?


Now to the drivel

------------

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM1. The property was returned in exceptional order its what one would be fortunate to receive, it absolutely shone and is a reflection of the occupant, completely remarked.

2. Therefore there are no claims on inventory. There would be no dispute arising from a claim on the inventory and no reason to refer to alternative dispute resolution arising from a dispute on the inventory. At the earliest we would be seeking to release the deposit promptly.

It is nice of them to confirm no damages or deductions this means they not only owe the deposit but also sanctions as determined by a Court or negotiated in good faith by the parties or their legal representatives.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
3. However Its' been realised that the property was sublet from valuation with rogue agents. In the old days pre my deposit where agents are rogue and there is evidence of subletting the Landlord keeps the deposit and the agent operating in a known sub context and practices will return money.

We are not in the old days, we are today so irrelevant and untrue in any event.  Before the Deposit Protection Legislation came in (as now) a claim and damages could only be made for the performance of the contract, their opening line says there are no performance issues.

 

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
4. In 2019 the Tenants Fee Ban Act became law which removes the Tenant entirely from paying lettings fees. However the Tenants Fee Ban was in fact applied by local agents from 2014.

 
Agent Letting Fees have never been payable by the Tenant, only Rent and services outlined in the Tenancy Agreement.

This TFA (2019) legislation was brought in to prohibit most fees, the fact that a Landlord has to pay fees to their Agent has no bearing on Deposit Protection which started in 2007.  A deposit is not a fee, it is the Tenants money held for the performance of the contract.  The TFA (2019) first applied to new contracts then in April 2020 it applied all contracts in existence, so no escape there.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
5. In reality of a subletted lettings environment it timed the payment of letting services by the landlord as paid by the Tenantby legal definition and land law (Tenancy Agreement of England and Wales,) regardless of the fee,  Act of Parliament or lettings environment that the Tenant paid fees entirely at the time despite the fact this was paid by the landlord (subletting, binding.)

Who's reality!! Certainly not the Courts!

If this person is writing to you now they are clearly your contact and the person you believe has your deposit and probably the person you paid.  If there was an Agent then both are culpable, perhaps they are accusing of subletting because they have some miserable hope to avoid sanctions, it won't work.

The Deposit is not a fee, so nothing to do with the Tenant Fees Act (2019).

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
6. The first months rental income and normal Tenancy Agreement is reversed to apply notice of the Tenancy Agreement across a path of legal timing (disposal,) leaving a shortfall or gap when notice of contract is given in normal course as the start of the Tenancy. This timing coincides with the same legal timing as release of deposit.

WTF kind of AI wrote that garbage, not even worth a response and bears no relevance to anything.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
7. Ordinarily the 12 months and deposit was paid normally but the Landlord has received 12 months minus one month rent (11 months,) where the fixed contract period is applied, not rolling. To balance this the Landlord must be evident to receive twelve months rent to return the deposit (subletting,) promptly.

The first two clauses of the Deposit Protection Legislation show that no deposit may be excluded from the requirements of Deposit Protection Legislation.

Requirements relating to tenancy deposits

(1) Any tenancy deposit paid to a person in connection with a shorthold tenancy must, as from the time when it is received, be dealt with in accordance with an authorised scheme.

(2)No person may require the payment of a tenancy deposit in connection with a shorthold tenancy which is not to be subject to the requirement in subsection (1).

Quote from: Milton05 on November 14, 2024, 07:33:02 PM
8. The matter for this reason only will be referred to the ADR or AVR if applicable.

ADR might have been an option if the deposit was protected but the ADR of Deposit Protection only applies to deductions from the deposit that relate to the performance of the contract. The civil procedure rules requires that a claim for deposit protection are brought under Part56 on the Part8 track. 

Quote from: jpkeates on November 15, 2024, 01:12:48 PMSome kind of AI?

Running on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum perhaps.

Quote from: David on November 19, 2024, 07:11:22 PMLet's entertain this crap for a nanosecond so we can work out a stonking great deposit protection claim.

When did you pay your deposit?

What was the Start Date of the first Tenancy?

What was the initial fixed term of the first Tenancy?

Were further Tenancy Agreements entered into after that 1st one, if so on what dates (approximately)?

Who is the person who replied to you (Landlord, Agent, or what?

Were they the person you paid the deposit to?

Who is listed as the owner of the property on £3 title deed search at Land Registry?

When was the last time this property was sold (on Title deed) ?

1) 07/01/2020
2) 07/01/2020
3) 12 months
4) There have been no further signed agreements, it reverted to a rolling contract at the end of the 12 months. In July 2023 the rent increased after mutual agreement.
5) Landlord
6) I paid the deposit to the agent who then (presumably) lodged it with mydeposits.
7) The Landlord on a leasehold basis as its a flat.
8 ) 2008

The thing is at this stage I'm fairly confident of getting my deposit back but because of mydeposit's process it's likely going to take another month and at some point I'll have to pay a solicitor to witness my signature.

Quote from: DPT on November 21, 2024, 09:56:45 AMRunning on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum perhaps.

+2.

IYKYK.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMLet's entertain this crap for a nanosecond so we can work out a stonking great deposit protection claim.

When did you pay your deposit?
1) 07/01/2020

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWhat was the Start Date of the first Tenancy?
2) 07/01/2020

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWhat was the initial fixed term of the first Tenancy?
3) 12 months

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWere further Tenancy Agreements entered into after that 1st one, if so on what dates (approximately)?

4) There have been no further signed agreements, it reverted to a rolling contract at the end of the 12 months. In July 2023 the rent increased after mutual agreement.

So then it comes down to whether the contract was Contractual Periodic or Statutory Periodic, that will be determined by the terms.  Typically if the contract refers to a "fixed term" of 12 months then the contract is going to likely be Statutory Periodic, but if it refers to an "initial term" of 12 months then may Contractual Periodic.  Both are likely to say they become periodic at the end of the term but the SPT one may be referring to the Housing Act 2004 making it become periodic or an SPT may be silent on what happens if you remain in the property as the SPT is created when there is no other clause for the continuation by contract.

Basically, if it is a CPT then there is only one Tenancy and thus one set of sanctions but if a new Tenancy was created by virtue of the legislation then they are two agreements each with a set of sanctions

However, we have not determined a failure yet, you clearly know the deposit is with MyDeposits the question is HOW do you know, was the PI served, was it partly contained in the Tenancy Agreement or have you found out recently.

Check the MyDeposits site for the date it was protected

http://bit.ly/depchk2


If it was not protected from within 30 days double check the other schemes

http://bit.ly/depchk1

http://bit.ly/depchk3

Then check your emails and paperwork for any information served upon you regarding the deposit, it should have been signed by the Landlord and you should have been given the opportunity to sign it.

It needs to have all the information prescribed here

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/797/article/2/made

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWho is the person who replied to you (Landlord, Agent, or what?
5) Landlord

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWere they the person you paid the deposit to?

6) I paid the deposit to the agent who then (presumably) lodged it with mydeposits.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWho is listed as the owner of the property on £3 title deed search at Land Registry?
7) The Landlord on a leasehold basis as its a flat.

Quote from: Milton05 on November 21, 2024, 05:22:42 PMWhen was the last time this property was sold (on Title deed) ?
8 ) 2008


The thing is at this stage I'm fairly confident of getting my deposit back but because of mydeposit's process it's likely going to take another month and at some point I'll have to pay a solicitor to witness my signature.

I do not know why you need to have a signature notarised in order to complete a deposit refund.

All the jibberish AI shit won't help them

I do not know why you need to have a signature notarised in order to complete a deposit refund.[/quote]It's a simple ID check to prove you are who you say you are. Photo ID and a couple of bills.

This is nothing I have ever seen, it is the Tenant's deposit and there is nothing about that requirement on their website

https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/how-do-i-get-my-deposit-back/

Usually a Tenant adds their bank details and initiates the return of their money, if there is no dispute raised by Landlord in 14 days some schemes return the deposit.

I am wondering if the OP has not logged into the MyDeposits Portal.

There is no way the schemes require a motorisation costing money to get their money back, it must be something else.

Quote from: jpkeates on November 26, 2024, 05:21:41 PMI do not know why you need to have a signature notarised in order to complete a deposit refund.

It's a simple ID check to prove you are who you say you are. Photo ID and a couple of bills.
[/quote]

If the deposit company doesn't know who is requesting the money, it must take steps to confirm their identity. That's just a matter of normal money handling.
The money belongs to the tenant, but if it's in a custodial scheme, the landlord puts it there and records the tenant's details.

If the landlord made an error in loading a tenant's email address or mobile number, or if they've changed or become inaccessible, the deposit scheme cannot know if the person asking for "their" money back is who they say they are. So, they use a "single claim" process, which is (pretty much) the same process a landlord uses if the tenant won't confirm that it's OK to release the deposit to them.

I suppose that my deposit were faced with the same gibberish AI crap as quoted in the OP, producing ID is one thing, having docs notarised is another step, I have never seen that, if it has happened then I imagine the scheme is covering itself because it has issues.

Quote from: jpkeates on November 27, 2024, 03:20:29 PMIf the deposit company doesn't know who is requesting the money, it must take steps to confirm their identity. That's just a matter of normal money handling.
The money belongs to the tenant, but if it's in a custodial scheme, the landlord puts it there and records the tenant's details.

If the landlord made an error in loading a tenant's email address or mobile number, or if they've changed or become inaccessible, the deposit scheme cannot know if the person asking for "their" money back is who they say they are. So, they use a "single claim" process, which is (pretty much) the same process a landlord uses if the tenant won't confirm that it's OK to release the deposit to them.

I've had to do it a couple of times (albeit as a landlord) for the DPS. It means that they don't have to do any ID checks themselves.

If anyone is interested in an update on this saga the following has now happened.

I got the "single release request" notarised and sent it to mydeposits who initiated a 14 day release. Since then my former landlord has claimed the entire deposit and entered the following as her reasoning:

"On release of the property subletting has been realised to have occurred which I believed was rogue agency practices, private matter but was know to incorporate or effect the Tenancy at the property.

This was an entanglement that caused delay in decisions including release of deposit only because one cannot action or continue normally lawfully in such circumstances.

I have mentioned before the Landlord keeps the deposit ordinarily as a confiscation in amidst illegal and illegitimate practices pursuant to any court or legal remedy that pertains as a matter of course.

I have sought to update reasonably all parties where concerned in reasonable time or to make enquires to make decisions in the midst of the legal mess to return the deposit and complete my duties as Landlord/ Landlord.

I really apologise to the Tenant for the wait time and timing. It has seemed academic to return the deposit and has done since my last email to do as a matter of normal circumstances.

However I have asked a person of decades experience of Landlord about the matters of subletting and release of the deposit. I was quite surprised that the reply indicated a likely probability the Tenant is involved.

I am afraid I must report to my deposits custodial and the Tenancy Adjudicator that [the tenant] breached the terms of the Tenancy Agreement when he applied for another Tenancy Agreement at another property and was resident there keeping the keys to property without the Landlords notice and in possession of the property and this has been known to [the agents] "

She has offered ZERO evidence for this (and incidentally neither of the two allegations against me are true). My question now is, is the onus on the landlord to provide evidence for her claims or do I somehow need to prove that I wasn't subletting and didn't apply for another tenancy at another property?

Yes, the landlord has to provide evidence for the loss that they're claiming compensation for.

If they're both not true, they simply won't be able to do that. And, in any case, the applying for another tenancy isn't something that would cause a loss (even if it was a term of a tenancy agreement and the tenant breached it), so that's completely academic.

Subletting might be a breach of contract if it happened, but again, the landlord would have to show that there had been a loss, not just that it had happened.

And, of course, if you did neither thing, they can't "prove" anything unless they make it up.

I imagine English isn't one of their primary languages.

Quote from: jpkeates on December 02, 2024, 05:25:36 PMYes, the landlord has to provide evidence for the loss that they're claiming compensation for.

If they're both not true, they simply won't be able to do that. And, in any case, the applying for another tenancy isn't something that would cause a loss (even if it was a term of a tenancy agreement and the tenant breached it), so that's completely academic.

Subletting might be a breach of contract if it happened, but again, the landlord would have to show that there had been a loss, not just that it had happened.

And, of course, if you did neither thing, they can't "prove" anything unless they make it up.

I imagine English isn't one of their primary languages.

Thank you, that gives me some confidence. And, no, English is not her first language.

Is her first name Chat and her surname GPT?

Quote from: Milton05 on December 02, 2024, 07:21:21 PM

Quote from: jpkeates on December 02, 2024, 05:25:36 PMYes, the landlord has to provide evidence for the loss that they're claiming compensation for.

If they're both not true, they simply won't be able to do that. And, in any case, the applying for another tenancy isn't something that would cause a loss (even if it was a term of a tenancy agreement and the tenant breached it), so that's completely academic.

Subletting might be a breach of contract if it happened, but again, the landlord would have to show that there had been a loss, not just that it had happened.

And, of course, if you did neither thing, they can't "prove" anything unless they make it up.

I imagine English isn't one of their primary languages.

Thank you, that gives me some confidence. And, no, English is not her first language.