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My Landlord don't allow my children to sleep over.

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Author Topic: My Landlord don't allow my children to sleep over.  (Read 173 times)
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« on: January 06, 2022, 10:17:05 PM »

Hello everyone,

I have just moved in to the new flat as a single occupant.    I have two kids 5 and 7 year old who are living with the mother and tend to sleep in mine two nights a week.

My problem is that my landlord told me that my kids are not allowed to stay over night at all, and also they can visit me in the flat for two days a week for like 2-3  hours and that's it.   
 
Me and my two boys are heart broken...   with such landlord instruction it seems like I can not even pick them from school at 3pm, end up in mine and do the home work with  them  and spend some family time as this would be more than 3h...

In my contract there is no mention on who when and how long can stay at all. In fact it say somewhere that if :

" ..to replace any broken glass in in the Premises promptly with the same quality glass, where the Tenant or any person who is residing or sleeping in or visiting the Premises causes the breakage."


Please does anyone can tell me what to think of it? 


Thank you for any advise
Dan
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 01:17:15 AM by Dan-K »
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2022, 10:08:59 AM »

On the face of it,this is unreasonable and not legally enforceable. Did you explain your domestic situation to the landlord/agent when you applied to take the flat? It is always a good idea to be upfront.I have had a few tenants who had child access,often for the whole weekend.If there are communal areas I have made it plain that the kids must not run around annoying neighbours. Some properties are not suitable for young children or pets for that matter.The part of about being responsible for breakages is perfectly correct.The fact that you mention it makes me ask if this has caused your landlord to impose these restrictions?   
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2022, 12:06:03 PM »

You say single occupant, do you mean you have the flat to yourself, or are you renting a room in a flat and sharing with e.g. the landlord as owner-occupier?

If you have the flat to yourself, totally unenforceable and I'd just ignore it.
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2022, 04:08:15 PM »

If you have the flat to yourself, totally unenforceable and I'd just ignore it.

Agreed.

@Dan-K's landlord needs to understand that when they let the flat to him:

- It became Dan-K's home
- To use as Dan-K wishes
- Without interference from the landlord
- With the proviso that Dan-K hands back the flat at the end of the tenancy in the same condition (less wear and tear).

What you (legally) do during your occupation of the flat is none of the landlord's business.
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2022, 11:48:40 AM »

I have just moved in to the new flat as a single occupant.

This certainly sounds like you have what is called "exclusive possession" of a self-contained property, i.e. the address is not being shared with anyone else... you are responsible for things like Council Tax and bills etc. on your own.

If so, what the Landlord is attempting to do is not something they can do.

Even if such a limitation was in any way legally enforceable, which it isn't, then you would expect it to be written into the contract you both signed. The Landlord cannot just add verbal restrictions and limitations to a tenancy as they see fit.

Even if anyone here thought it was possible to enforce this, which they don't, then I'd still ignore it. Your family overrides any transient tenancy considerations... by a country mile. What's the worst that can happen? The Landlord asks you to leave and you eventually leave? That's nothing compared to having some form of interaction with your kids. It's just a bit of upheaval you could do without.
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2022, 05:14:52 PM »

Hello everyone and thank you for your opinion on that strange case.

Let me explain what type of property is that;

It is a very nice big old house in the heart of a small town and is operating as a B&B with 10 rooms for everyday customers on top floors. There is one basement flat in which  I live with separate entrance (fully furnished - very good standard), the ground floor (above me) is the front entrance to the B&B, landlords office some kind of dining room and that's it, no one lives on the ground floor.  On the first floor is the landlord bedroom + 2 B&B rooms, and all the way up are the B&B rooms.
Basically I have no neighbours. Landlord even agreed for me to watch loud movies in the late evenings which I do with happiness, no issues with that.

My landlord is actually a nice couple in they 60s with the dog that my kids have been playing with, and once we took the dog for a walk... (but anyway) ..

In the very  beginning during the flat viewing me and my landlord we were talking what is what and I did say loud and clear that I have kids and they will be coming to me 2-3 day a week after school run, I also did mention that they might stay over. My landlord of course did agree with no problem resulting with the contract. And it was alright for 60 days my boys were staying with me 2 days a week.

Now, the land lady made this U-turn and told me that no one including my kids are  allowed to stay over night. 

They told me that the flat was listed for a single professional, which I am.
also that flat is not suitable for kids, and they  might break something etc.

Nothing was ever broken, there is not even a mark on the wall !

I am single professional (not married) working in IT, paying council tax as a single occupier, with no financial problems, in fact I did pay 6 month rent on front as requested.

One thing is for sure, it can not go like that. Right now I am not sure how to play the ball with the landlord ......to keep it nice

what you guys think ?
thank you all
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 05:41:13 PM by Dan-K »
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2022, 05:27:08 PM »

Not sure if I'm being a bit slow but I'm not sure what kind of a tenancy this is.  It doesn't appear to be an AST.  Do you have a shared kitchen?  It sounds like some sort of an HMO or lodger agreement.

All the movie talk and verbal agreements are irrelevant.

If you have an AST and have your own kitchen and bathroom then your children can stay over.  If this is a lodger's agreement then your rights are much lower.

Ultimately, you are in a property that is unsuitable for your needs.  Look for more suitable accommodation ready for the end of your tenancy.
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2022, 06:01:36 PM »

It is One bedroom flat with own  kitchen and bathroom.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 06:04:46 PM by Dan-K »
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2022, 06:09:15 PM »

It is One bedroom flat with own  kitchen and bathroom.

Then you are a tenant.

Were you provided with a written Tenancy Agreement?

Does it say that your tenancy is defined period?

Does it refer to your tenancy as an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (AST)?
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2022, 06:14:53 PM »

It is One bedroom flat with own  kitchen and bathroom.

Then you are a tenant.

Were you provided with a written Tenancy Agreement?

Does it say that your tenancy is defined period?

Does it refer to your tenancy as an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement (AST)?



YES it say  on the first page ;  "Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement (AST)"
the PDF file name  ARLA-AST-TENANT.pdf

It is 12 month contract with extending option
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 06:18:59 PM by Dan-K »
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2022, 06:21:28 PM »

Then as said above, your landlord cannot impose the terms on your that they are trying to.



...also that flat is not suitable for kids, and they  might break something etc.

This is irrelevant.

Your only requirement is to return the flat at the end of your tenancy in the same condition that it was in when you moved (allowing for fair wear and tear).

If your kids (or you) break anything, then the only requirement is that your repair the damage or replace the item. Failing that the landlord can make a deduction from your deposit, at the end of the tenancy.

Were you required to pay a deposit?

If so, did the landlord protect the deposit and give you the Prescribed Information:

Prescribed Information is a specific set of information relating to a tenancy, which you're legally obliged to provide to your tenants. You must serve your tenants with the Prescribed Information within 30 days of the agent/landlord receiving the deposit.

- The amount of the deposit

- The address of the property

- The name, address and contact details of the administrator of the tenancy deposit scheme with which the deposit is held

- The name, address and contact details of the landlord and tenants and any third parties who have contributed to the deposit


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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2022, 06:28:16 PM »

Then as said above, your landlord cannot impose the terms on your that they are trying to.



...also that flat is not suitable for kids, and they  might break something etc.

This is irrelevant.

Your only requirement is to return the flat at the end of your tenancy in the same condition that it was in when you moved (allowing for fair wear and tear).

If your kids (or you) break anything, then the only requirement is that your repair the damage or replace the item. Failing that the landlord can make a deduction from your deposit, at the end of the tenancy.

Were you required to pay a deposit?

If so, did the landlord protect the deposit and give you the Prescribed Information:

Prescribed Information is a specific set of information relating to a tenancy, which you're legally obliged to provide to your tenants. You must serve your tenants with the Prescribed Information within 30 days of the agent/landlord receiving the deposit.

- The amount of the deposit

- The address of the property

- The name, address and contact details of the administrator of the tenancy deposit scheme with which the deposit is held

- The name, address and contact details of the landlord and tenants and any third parties who have contributed to the deposit



Hi,
Yes I did pay deposit.

On the first page it say;

Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement

To be used where the Deposit is registered with the Deposit Protection Service (DPS)
Custodial Scheme

ARLA  propertymark protected
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 06:30:22 PM by Dan-K »
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2022, 06:40:56 PM »

This is odd.If you have a good credit rating and references,with a secure job and good income I am surprised that they insisted on 6 months upfront. Have you recently become self-employed perhaps? With regard to the children situation,I would write a polite but firm letter to the person named on your lease.Point out that you have a right to quiet enjoyment as a tenant,and that they have no business dictating who visits you and for how long. You might prefer to have a private word with the husband first,to see what has made the wife become awkward,and explain that this intrusion into your privacy is not acceptable. Certainly don't stop having your kids to stay.
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2022, 06:45:13 PM »

Yes I did pay deposit.

Were you given the Prescribed Information about the deposit?

The reason asking is that if the landlord neglected to do that, then you have a financial claim against the landlord, where you are certain to win:

- Return of the deposit

plus

- Between 1 and 3 times the value of the deposit as a penalty.

You'd also have a very strong additional lever (not that you need one) to tell your landlord to back off regarding the unenforceable restrictions on your kids that they are trying to impose.
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2022, 10:02:03 AM »

Something was niggling in my head about your landlord's change of attitude.A homeless friend was given temporary accomodation a few years back.I recall him saying that he had to meet his adult daughter outside the hostel (previously a hotel) Is the B&B above you used for people in this situation? If so, there may be regulations or insurance restrictions that cover the whole property. Just a thought. 
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2022, 10:18:07 AM »

If so, there may be regulations or insurance restrictions that cover the whole property.

The definition of "whole property" is surely his address, though? And the "whole property" for them is their address. I'd hope it would be.

But... even so... that's the Landlord's problem to navigate, right? I think what you're saying is that this may have come to light with the Landlord's side and they're trying their best to resolve it to their satisfaction by strong-arming the Tenant and hoping that they're gullible enough, or meek enough, to simply comply and not kick up a fuss? Some people are quite brazen.

Or maybe the whole building is made of gingerbread, cake and pastries and the Landlord's wife is from another story entirely and fears she might not be able to control her temptation.
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2022, 10:51:38 AM »

I'm thinking the same thing as Handyman.  I get the feeling this landlord has little idea as to their legal responsibilities.  It's possible they haven't protected the deposit correctly and if this is correct this gives you a bit of leeway regarding notice being handed in on you and getting your deposit at the end of the tenancy.

If I was the OP, I'd be looking into this. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2022, 11:40:25 AM »

Is the B&B above you used for people in this situation? If so, there may be regulations or insurance restrictions that cover the whole property. Just a thought.

no, it was never used for such purpose. besides they would mention on that ...
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2022, 11:44:42 AM »

If so, there may be regulations or insurance restrictions that cover the whole property.

The definition of "whole property" is surely his address, though? And the "whole property" for them is their address. I'd hope it would be.

But... even so... that's the Landlord's problem to navigate, right? I think what you're saying is that this may have come to light with the Landlord's side and they're trying their best to resolve it to their satisfaction by strong-arming the Tenant and hoping that they're gullible enough, or meek enough, to simply comply and not kick up a fuss? Some people are quite brazen.

Or maybe the whole building is made of gingerbread, cake and pastries and the Landlord's wife is from another story entirely and fears she might not be able to control her temptation.

The B&B has its  address;  47 Bow Street,
My flat is ;    Flat 1, 47 Bow Street
there is also Flat 2 , 47 Bow Street  - another tenant living  on the second floor , also single occupant. 
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2022, 03:30:25 PM »

Obviously the landlord cannot impose such rules,regardless.I just thought it might explain an otherwise odd change of attitude.The landlord might have been too lazy to sort out the red-tape,and decided it was easier to try it on with this tenant.Anyway,I am off to eat some cake and pastries.
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2022, 04:01:15 PM »

Today my  land lady  verbally  updated me about her decision .

she said that she has nothing against the children, its that this is single occupancy flat  and I have to stick to the contract.
and also this flat is not suitable for children because there is no garden .

also she told me that  she double checked with her  estate agent (who I was dealing with and received the contract from) to make sure that  she is correct and apparently estate agent did confirm that I am  not allowed to have children  sleeping over. 

right now I looked again in to the contract, and still I can not see anything what would support her claim....  I am confused...

I am attaching my contract for anyone of you who want to look at it  and  correct me if I am wrong  or what in hell is going on ...

I split PDF  it in two files/parts  due to file size allowed here
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2022, 04:02:24 PM »

contract part two

pdf attached
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2022, 05:04:55 PM »

she said that she has nothing against the children, its that this is single occupancy flat  and I have to stick to the contract.

also she told me that she double checked with her  estate agent (who I was dealing with and received the contract from) to make sure that  she is correct and apparently estate agent did confirm that I am  not allowed to have children sleeping over. 

right now I looked again in to the contract, and still I can not see anything what would support her claim....  I am confused...

I am guessing that the estate agent and your landlord are basing their 'no children sleeping over' position on the fact that the contract does not name them as Permitted Occupiers, which it defines as:

"‘Permitted Occupier’, if used in the Agreement, includes any person who is licensed by the Landlord to reside at the Premises and who will be bound by all the terms of this Agreement apart from the payment of rent."

And the scope of that depends on what "reside at the Premises" means from a legal point of view.

I am not a lawyer, but from a bit of searching, it appears that reside has a meaning along these lines:

"RESIDENT, persons. A person coming into a place with intention to establish his domicile or permanent residence, and who in consequence actually remains there."

and:

"DOMICILE Broadly, domicile can be summarised as an individual's permanent home."

You'd need to confirm this someone who is legally qualified, but I would suggest that your children staying with you a couple of days (and nights) a week makes them visitors, rather than Occupiers in the sense written in your contract.

Your landlord's statement that "the flat is not suitable for children because there is no garden" is irrelevant.


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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2022, 09:51:17 PM »

From what you say,the children's official home address is with their mother.They are clearly not resident with you,just visiting.Regardless,the landlord can agree to things at their discretion.I have done this several times with regard to pets.It seems to me that something has happened to annoy this woman,or another person has complained,and she is using this as an excuse. The issue about a garden is nonsense if they are only there a couple of days a week. If she feels strongly about this she will serve notice at the appropriate time.Personally,I think she is stupid if you are a good tenant.In the meantime,just  carry on having your children as usual.You are not at fault.
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