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Deposit double protected - one PI or two ??

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Author Topic: Deposit double protected - one PI or two ??  (Read 295 times)
Jr. Member
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« on: July 21, 2022, 08:03:53 PM »

Hope everyone is keeping well.

First some context:
1) AST in England in Sept 2020 deposit paid and PI was served which had in it agents (lets call them agent A)'s address for LL's address.

2) Agent A had protected the deposit under TDS scheme

3) in Nov 2020, LL appointed new agent ( agent B) - but no new contracts was signed

4) But, it looks like deposit has changed hands from agent A to B, as agent B has registered the deposit with TDS as if it was received in Nov 2020 in Jan 2021. - but no PI was served to us. In fact we were oblivious to this until now when I contacted TDS.

5) The old protection by agent A came to an end in March 2021 as we received an email from TDS. But Agent B said it was just an 'error' and deposit 'remain protected'


With this context, should we be served with a new PI or not pls? Since the deposit was re-protected the requirements to serve PI was applied afresh?  Also, the fact that landlord's address changed from the initial P in 1) above (by virtue of old agent not in the picture) warranted a new PI?


Would love to know where law stands on this issue.

Thanks

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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2022, 09:24:14 PM »

You already had an answer to the questions you asked in yet another thread you posted.

If you were looking for something to help you get a penalty awarded to bring your arrears below section 8 ground 8 threshold, has there been any new tenancy since September 2020? Or was that a fixed term, and if so when did that end?
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 01:27:56 AM »

thanks KTC for the reply.

other thread was mainly for section 8. Since this is about section 213 I decided to start a new one.. hope it is ok.

I am brought the arrears to less than two months rent already. Since the LL will not budge, thinking of counterclaim, hence deposit protection.

The initial tenancy that started in Sept 2020 was for a fixed term of 12 months, so must have ended in Sept 21. No new tenancy has been signed. I think it would not matter anyway as the PI served in September by the old agent is valid till March 2021.

But in the mean time, in Nov 2020, agents changed so I am not sure if they had to issue me with a fresh PI when that happened- both agents have protected the deposit with the same scheme (TDS).

Looking forward for your answer..

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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 11:38:37 PM »

There's nothing suggesting they need to provide you with new PI when it's the landlord's agent and not the landlord that's changed, especially when they used the same scheme.

There's no requirement to have to provide you PI again when your fixed term ended and a statutory periodic tenancy started since "when the new tenancy comes into being, the deposit continues to be held in connection with the new tenancy, in accordance with the same authorised scheme as when the requirements of section 213(5) and (6)(a) were last complied with by the landlord in relation to the deposit."
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2022, 12:45:48 AM »

yes, I understand no need to serve new one when the periodic tenancy started, but what I am concerned about is when agent changed. This is because, the deposit seem to have changed parties leading to re-protection.

I guess it does NOT give rise to any claim as deposit was protected by old agent during this time..but pls confirm.

The current TDS certificate has this info though.

- Tenancy started : Sept 2020
- Received by member: Nov 2020 (when agents changed)
- Registered with TDS: Jan 2021


btw, do you know what is a consent order and what are the the impact of having one against your name pls?

the LL took made a claim for possession and now willing to offer me this consent order (if I can commit to a payment plan) and say if I accept I do not have to even attend the hearing...

I am weighing this up against, going to court and getting the Judge to set the instalments which may be smaller to clear the arrears.

Do you have any advice that would help me pls?
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2022, 01:07:51 PM »

mahira having read your posts you seem like the biggest pillock on this forum. Either pay the rent you owe or get out of the property! It isn't yours!!!
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2022, 02:25:56 PM »

I guess Sandcastle you are a landlord and you would never understand hard working tenants can some times fall behind due to pandemic etc, and then you engage with them first before taking them to courts.. If you have nothing constructive to reply, how about not writing anything at all !?
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2022, 02:36:03 PM »

I guess Sandcastle you are a landlord and you would never understand hard working tenants can some times fall behind due to pandemic etc, and then you engage with them first before taking them to courts.. If you have nothing constructive to reply, how about not writing anything at all !?

have you made any attempt to pay the LL back? How many months' rent do you owe? Paying that back should be your number one priority, yet you seem to think of yourself as the victim!

I am happy to talk constructively but I will bet you will not answer those two simple questions above!
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2022, 03:12:57 PM »

Yea,go for it!
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2022, 05:19:03 PM »

Actually, I had agreed a payment plan and got the arrears to half...but he still served me s8..when I asked him about this, he said he wanted to have the rent cleared quicker...

Had he told me about this before court proceedings, I would have been even amenable to it...now he wants me to sign consent order..

I know I owe rent, and I am happy to payback , but money does not grow in trees and I need time so that I can work extra to pay this back...but landlord just want money and need this quicker...

Now, can I kindly share any advise you may have pls ?
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2022, 10:23:20 AM »

As per the responses to your other thread, there is no need for the PI to be reserved if the deposit protection changes in the legislation.
The deposit is received by the landlord (the agent is working for them), so a change in agent doesn't affect the protection and, as long as it stays in the same scheme, I don't think a change in contact address is enough to require new PI.

If the landlord or agent changes address it doesn't invalidate the PI already given.

You're clutching at straws here.
Your landlord is trying to evict you while there's an agreed payment plan in place which is (broadly) being kept to.
If you're under two month's in arrears when the hearing takes place, I'd expect their claim to fail (although I am not the judge).
If the debt is more than two months, it would be quite reasonable for the judge to award the possession claim (because they have to) and then suspend it to allow you to clear the debt in line with the payment plan.
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2022, 12:14:35 PM »

mahira, answer the exact question... how much rent do you owe (in months, you do not have to say the value) and how much have you paid back so far?
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2022, 01:06:15 PM »

I owed 4 months rent (combined total) at the during the pandemic (it wasn't I did not pay at all, been paying reduced rent  after getting in touch with LL) and now got it down to 1.5 months..
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2022, 01:09:36 PM »

I owed 4 months rent (combined total) at the during the pandemic (it wasn't I did not pay at all, been paying reduced rent  after getting in touch with LL) and now got it down to 1.5 months..

okay i admit it, i was probably too hasty in calling you the biggest prat on this forum. I apologise. I do think though that your energy should be focused on paying that debt as soon as possible rather than pursuing legal strategies against the landlord.
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2022, 02:27:02 PM »

well, yes, I am trying to clear the arrears, but  if the landlord is arrogant to still go to court despite my good intention and actions, I got to give it back to him right...?

But, I understand from KTC and JPKEATES, the ground under s214 seems not valid..I will have to do more research on this..

anyway, anybody know what impact agreeing to a consent order with LL be pls? This is because, I am trying to see if it is better to defend the s8 or agree to a consent order which as I understand just to have a legal force to a payment plan I had put forward and can commit to.
Newbie
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2022, 02:37:52 PM »

well, yes, I am trying to clear the arrears, but  if the landlord is arrogant to still go to court despite my good intention and actions, I got to give it back to him right...?

But, I understand from KTC and JPKEATES, the ground under s214 seems not valid..I will have to do more research on this..

anyway, anybody know what impact agreeing to a consent order with LL be pls? This is because, I am trying to see if it is better to defend the s8 or agree to a consent order which as I understand just to have a legal force to a payment plan I had put forward and can commit to.

So this is a completely separate case from your 2017 one?

You have had two separate landlords who have tried to evict you for non payment of rent? And you believe that they both breached the s214 rules?

That is quite a conincedence!
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2022, 03:12:59 PM »

yes, both of them only interested in money and not interested to follow rules (first one certainly was, the second seems less so).

I have answered all your questions, but yet to receive a single constructive reply..which begs the question - what is your purpose on this forum? just to belittle those trying to use s214?
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2022, 08:03:33 PM »

anybody know what impact agreeing to a consent order with LL be pls? This is because, I am trying to see if it is better to defend the s8 or agree to a consent order which as I understand just to have a legal force to a payment plan I had put forward and can commit to.
A consent order is a court approved record of an agreement.
So it's not really possible to say whether it's good or not because that depends on what it says, rather than what it is.

Generally it is a financial agreement of some kind (they're common in divorce settlements) that, if not complied with, is a contempt of court, which is quite a serious matter.

It normally wouldn't involve a possession claim, so, on the face of it, it would probably confirm the payment plan that you have agreed (and that you slipped up on) and you'd still be living in the property, so that would be a win.
If you don't keep to the payment plan under the consent order, I think you could possibly go to prison (although that's not likely).

Part of the decision is likely to be the landlord's legal costs - getting a consent order isn't that cheap and it seems an odd thing to pursue when the arrears are being paid.
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2022, 08:25:20 PM »

If the debt is more than two months, it would be quite reasonable for the judge to award the possession claim (because they have to) and then suspend it to allow you to clear the debt in line with the payment plan.

I'm not sure how estoppel interacts with section 8 here. On its own if ground 8 are met, the court must award an order for possession and cannot suspend it. The most it can do is postpone it to up to six weeks from the date of the making of the order. Maybe the tenant in such a situation could apply for and get an adjournment before the hearing of evidence on the basis that there's an agreed payment plan that's being followed. Once the hearing take place, it's too late.
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2022, 10:01:34 AM »

I told myself I would not comment any more on this.Your first post dragged on for years,any help you got only led to yet more demands for advice.You were very coy about the reasons for the conflict with your previous landlord,and never came back here with the result of your court case.How did it go,did you get the many thousands you were claiming? If so,you could have kept paying your rent.

You accuse your landlords of only caring about money,and seem unaware of how hypocritical you are. You seem to be devoting your life to finding loopholes to evade your own responsibilities and screw every last penny from anyone who challenges you.Your words such as "I would have been amenable to this" betray you.You seem to think you are doing a big favour to your landlord if you pay rent to live to live in his house.I was expecting a couple of my tenants to get into difficulties during Covid,and would have been sympathetic.In fact,they gave priority to paying their rent.
I would be interested to know if you have other claims going? There has been a change in your tone this time, previously you expressed grovelling thanks to anyone who was giving you support.This time you are more irritable,impatient that others are not doing enough for you. The thing is Mahira,nothing will ever be enough for you,will it?
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2022, 10:40:57 AM »

Something about this saga does not seem right to me. Knowing a little about the sector, I wonder if Mahira is running a "rent to rent" operation - i.e. renting properties in order to sublet on Airbnb or the like?

Either way, it seems odd that someone would run into these problems twice in such quick succession.
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2022, 12:17:20 PM »

I'm not sure how estoppel interacts with section 8 here. On its own if ground 8 are met, the court must award an order for possession and cannot suspend it. The most it can do is postpone it to up to six weeks from the date of the making of the order. Maybe the tenant in such a situation could apply for and get an adjournment before the hearing of evidence on the basis that there's an agreed payment plan that's being followed. Once the hearing take place, it's too late.
I don't really understand how s9 operates in practice.
I don't see why a court's normal discretion to suspend its judgement or postpone a decision should require specifically restating in this legislation.

And s9 seems to be otherwise pointless - because the "extended discretion" given by the section is essentially removed by s9(6) as the schedule of possible grounds is, as far as can tell, exhaustive.
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2022, 09:31:07 PM »

And s9 seems to be otherwise pointless - because the "extended discretion" given by the section is essentially removed by s9(6) as the schedule of possible grounds is, as far as can tell, exhaustive.

The discretion is disapplied for Part I of Schedule 2 and section 21, i.e. all the mandatory grounds. All the discretionary ground is in Part II of Schedule 2. Section 89 of the Housing Act 1980 limits how long the court may otherwise suspend a possession order for, also probably the reason why discretion needed to be specifically stated in s9.
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2022, 10:01:31 AM »

And s9 seems to be otherwise pointless - because the "extended discretion" given by the section is essentially removed by s9(6) as the schedule of possible grounds is, as far as can tell, exhaustive.

The discretion is disapplied for Part I of Schedule 2 and section 21, i.e. all the mandatory grounds. All the discretionary ground is in Part II of Schedule 2. Section 89 of the Housing Act 1980 limits how long the court may otherwise suspend a possession order for, also probably the reason why discretion needed to be specifically stated in s9.
Makes sense, thanks.
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