UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi all,

I am a student and have been living in a rented property with 3 other students for the last two years. We originally moved in in July 2022. Our tenancy came to an end about a month ago but we still haven't received our deposit of £3000 back as we haven't reached an agreement with our landlord. So far, we have paid £380 for cleaning and gardening/power-washing costs and our landlord wants to charge us another £350 for the cracked tiles and £400 for the couch. In all, we would be £1280 short of our original deposit (including a broken mirror she's charging £50 for).

During our tenancy, a large crack in the bathroom floor tiles has surfaced. Unfortunately, we don't know if the tile was there before we moved in or not. Being students and completely unexperienced with renting a property before, we didn't take any photos when we moved in. However, we happen to have a picture in December 2022 where the crack was much smaller and less visible. Comparing it with the tiles now, the crack has grown much larger and a new smaller one has surfaced. We believe this has been caused by temperature fluctuations or some other natural cause, not accidental damage as our landlord is claiming.

Also during our tenancy, the condition of the main couches in our living room has deteriorated significantly. The base of the couches has depressed, so the sitting position is much lower than what it used to be when the base was still intact. It has made the couches much more uncomfortable to sit on. The only thing we can think of that caused this deterioration is sometimes one of our flatmates would drop onto the couches after a long day, but we never did anything intentionally harmful such as stand on them. I will say though, these couches are really cheap and poor quality, with next to no cushioning on the base, so they were already quite uncomfortable and prone to breaking to begin with. Our landlord now plans to buy a brand new expensive (£1200) couch to replace it, of which she would pay £800 and we would pay £400. Before this, we tried finding a suitable replacement ourselves and we found a much bigger and better quality couch (than the one we are replacing) in a charity shop which would have come to £300 in total for us, but our landlord complained about the colour and declined (although I suspect this is an excuse to try and push the £1200 couch).

This is all compounded by the fact that our landlord is incredibly unprofessional. She has said she is being kind by only charging us £800 but has threatened (verbally) that if we try to dispute this further (whether through the protection scheme or just verbally), she will try and grab the entire £3000 for herself by claiming for other damages. She has not at any point mentioned what these other damages are so I suspect this is a bluff. She has also not provided much evidence herself, only giving us a video she said was taken before we moved in (where there was no crack on the floor) but on inspecting the video metadata, it was recorded 8 months before our start date. When asking for any more evidence, she claims she has photos taken by an inventory company just before we moved in, but she says it'll cost her £450 to access, for which we'll have to pay if we start a dispute (which sounds like BS). We've also maintained contact with the real estate agent about this situation, and although they're a lot more professional, they're saying we don't have much grounds to stand on, although we're not sure if this is because they're biased and trying to protect their client.

So we're left in a position where we're completely unsure if this is worth fighting (by disputing) or not. We personally think this all should come under wear and tear but we're unsure about the couches since that was damage caused by us. We don't have a huge amount of evidence or experience. We've already spent so much time on this situation and we're at the point where we are thinking of relenting and paying up to not have to deal with all of this but before we did, I wanted to get some perspective from an unbiased, experienced third party and so I would really appreciate any advice.

Please find below some photos of the tiles and couches after the tenancy (as well as a photo of the tiles on December 2022). I apologise for the obstruction (the mat and the pillows) but hopefully you can see the damages.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fOjIUeqetGWRF2LJ1MZiYH1LiAKGhRsL?usp=sharing

Thank you again all in advance 

Dispute the charges. A landlord can't charge for a replacement anything (unless the situation is really unusual - like a previous artwork's been ruined).

A landlord is allowed to claim compensation for a loss beyond the normal wear and tear associated with your living in the property. So any claim pretty much gas to be based on the value of the item(S) damaged or missing.

In this case, for example, it sounds like you've wrecked the couch. So an item of furniture that was expected to last x years, and which cost £y has only lasted a shorter time. So hou've cost the landlord (x-the shorter time)/x times £y.

Keep any communication where the landlord threatens to increase the claim if you dispute it, or charge for access to information. They're absolutely not allowed to do that.

I'd start by asking the landlord to make a claim on the basis above, which is standard. Your deposit will have been protected in a secure scheme, which will have a free dispute resolution service. One of you will have been nominated as the "lead tenant" with this service and will be able to raise a dispute.

Quote from: Pri2003 on August 12, 2024, 11:09:57 PM...has threatened (verbally) that if we try to dispute this further (whether through the protection scheme or just verbally), she will try and grab the entire £3000 for herself by claiming for other damages...

This, here, is all you need to know. The Landlord suspects what will happen if you go down this route. So inform her, in writing, that unless a compromise is reached (I'm sure you don't expect 100% of your Deposit back) then you'll go down the ADR route of the Deposit scheme in question. Set the target you want to aim for (it can't be zero, really, otherwise there's no reason for the Landlord to engage) and stick to it, no need to keep it secret.

This is entirely your right, but the onus of effort and evidence being placed upon the Landlord means, at best, this will be a lot of work, time and effort for them - and, as stated, it's very unlikely such a positive outcome as the Landlord wants to happen will transpire. We say that based on numerous pieces of anecdotal evidence from this forum over the years.

Inform the Landlord that you intend to commence this by, say, Friday the 16th of August, unless you can arrive at a compromise beforehand. If the Landlord puts their head in the sand, then just do it without further warning, but - as you do it - inform the Landlord, and Agent, that you've done it, I'm sure they'll be hearing shortly from the Scheme.

If the Landlord already knows how Deposit schemes work then there's a possibility they'll come back with a compromise.
If the Landlord hasn't done everything they should with the Deposit then there's a possibility they'll come back with a compromise.

What you will get out of following it through is an adjudication from an objective third party. You will experience a delay.

Let us know how it goes, we can assist further as things happen.

Follow the advice given,  use the scheme without hesitation if it comes to it. 

@Pri2003, I agree with the advice that the above posters have given.


With regard to the bathroom tiles...

Quote from: Pri2003 on August 12, 2024, 11:09:57 PMHowever, we happen to have a picture in December 2022 where the crack was much smaller and less visible. Comparing it with the tiles now, the crack has grown much larger and a new smaller one has surfaced. We believe this has been caused by temperature fluctuations or some other natural cause, not accidental damage as our landlord is claiming.

Looking at your photographs, it is clear that the cracks are due to faulty installation of the tiles.

Had you dropped something heavy on them, then the surface would have been chipped and the damage would have been confined to a single tile or, much less likely, two adjacent ones if the item had struck the border between two tiles. They would not have cracked like this.

The fact that there was a small crack in Dec 2022, which has increased significantly in size by July 2024, and that the crack now spans three tiles (including the one that goes under the shower!), is indicative that the tiles are not adequately supported. Most likely, the floor flexes a tiny amount when the tiles are walked on and that is what has led to the cracks.

Is this an upstairs bathroom?
Or, if downstairs, are there floorboards in the property, which would indicate timber joists, rather than a solid concrete floor?

You should dispute the claim for the tiles.

Remember, there's little point in going for 100% of the Deposit, otherwise the Landlord has no incentive to compromise. A compromise is the outcome I believe you should want here - so each side has to feel they lost something and is terribly unhappy with the result.

You can go down the ADR route, but, unless you have time and patience or the Landlord is intransigent, I hope you don't need to. The outcome you want is where the Landlord begrudgingly hands back the majority of the £3,000 (almost) voluntarily and you get to move on. A reasonable person should go for this once they realise you're not an easy mark - 'cos they will understand (if they don't then you can explain all about like-for-like and depreciation etc.) they're trying a fast one.

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much to everyone who has responded - it's left us a lot more confident on what our next steps are.

As an update, we messaged the landlord asking for the price of the couch when she bought it as well as the date of purchase. She responded saying she doesn't know since it came with the property when she bought it around 5 years ago. This as a minimum age for the couch leaves us quite confident that the £400 that she proposed was too high.

She was quite angry throughout this response saying that if we are trying to argue with her any more (we haven't been confrontational at all), she will charge for the replacement of the entire bathroom floor, which she would charge us £1000 for. Considering she has previously estimated us £350 for the tiles that were damaged, and that we are confident the tiles were not our fault, we are trying not to be swayed by this threat.

We are going to tell her tomorrow that we will compensate her £300 for the couch (based on the replacement we found) and £50 for the mirror instead of her £800 and we will give her until Friday 23rd August to come to a conclusion, after which we will raise a dispute. Unfortunately, knowing our landlord, we are quite confident she will not accept this compromise as she has been adamant about us breaking the bathroom tiles.

In response to your message @HandyMan, this is a downstairs bathroom. The entirety of the downstairs consists of floorboards, except the kitchen and bathrooms. We are unsure if there are timber joists however under the tiles or if it's concrete. Our landlord is becoming more and more uncooperative with our questions.

Thanks everyone again for your advice. I'd like to ask one more question however. Given the evidence I've provided in this post so far, do you think it is possible that we could end up losing much more than £800 by the end of this? We would like to weigh up whether it is worth the risk to go through the dispute process.

You lay it on thick with the Landlord about raising the Dispute - letting them know, in no uncertain terms, you are fully aware that a Landlord cannot claim like-for-like full-on replacements, that you now fully understand the concepts of wear-and-tear and depreciation, and you doubt the usability of any of her information as 'evidence', and then top-and-tail it with the fact you've "taken advice" and are aware the onus of effort and documentation in a Dispute is entirely on the Landlord.

You don't probe with gentle questions at this stage. You go in hard and give the impression you are in the driving seat and calling all the shots. Based on the source of the couch cost, I wonder how the Landlord could ever prove its 'worth', never mind its cost, as it was bundled in a property sale? She can't even prove its age as she has zero knowledge about it - could be 20 years old and be considered worthless. A replacement (and value thereof) hardly seems relevant to me.

Quote from: Pri2003 on August 17, 2024, 03:53:44 PMthis is a downstairs bathroom. The entirety of the downstairs consists of floorboards, except the kitchen and bathrooms. We are unsure if there are timber joists however under the tiles or if it's concrete.

If you have downstairs floorboards, then you have timber joists throughout, including in the kitchen and bathroom, rather than solid concrete.

If tiles are laid directly on floorboards, then they will crack due to the joists flexing slightly when you walk on them.

The tiles should have been laid on an adequately thick (~12mm) sheet of plywood on top of the floorboards to prevent flexing. This either wasn't done, or the plywood wasn't thick enough. Hard to prove the construction method now, but 3 adjacent tiles would not have cracked in the manner shown in your photo if they had been properly supported.

Thank you so much @Hippogriff and @HandyMan! I've sent a strongly worded message now to my landlord, reiterating the concepts you've described and giving an ultimatum for this Friday. Hopefully our landlord will understand the effort required and go ahead with our compromise. I will post any updates as they happen.

I agree with all the advice given.  Personally I would not expect any recompense for the sofa. It was probably just left there at no cost to her because it was not worth enough for the original owner to bother selling it, and easier than going to the tip. Our local tip often has cheap sofas in the charity shop attached,  so I think your offer of £300 is very reasonable. 

Hi everyone, I have just received a response from the letting agent that's helping out the landlord with this dispute. I was wondering if the evidence he is asking us to provide below is necessary for us to fulfil (i.e. cost of the couch and reason for crack in bathroom)? The message is as follows:

QuoteI am writing in response to your recent communication regarding the costs associated with the damages identified in the property. We understand that litigation may be under consideration, but we firmly believe that it is more economical and beneficial for both parties to resolve this matter amicably. Below, I will outline our position and the reasoning behind the costs we have proposed.

Corner Sofa Cost Assessment
The cost we have requested for the Edwardian Cobalt Blue Medium Velvet 5-Seater Corner Sofa has been calculated at 50% of the current market price. This is a fair valuation, given the condition and use of the sofa. Our research, which you can review here, supports this valuation: Edwardian Cobalt Blue Medium Velvet 5-Seater Corner Sofa https://www.google.com/search?q=Edwardian+Cobalt+Blue+Medium+velvet+5+seats+Corner+Sofa&sca_esv=95c8278cb6029363&sxsrf=ADLYWIIqoPY0fcvI8Jc8NtG2do1-8jMpTg%3A1724428659634&ei=c7HIZpC2JpKJi-gPrJnpoAw&ved=0ahUKEwjQu8qtvYuIAxWSxAIHHaxMGsQQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=Edwardian+Cobalt+Blue+Medium+velvet+5+seats+Corner+Sofa&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiN0Vkd2FyZGlhbiBDb2JhbHQgQmx1ZSBNZWRpdW0gdmVsdmV0IDUgc2VhdHMgQ29ybmVyIFNvZmFIAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp. )

However, we are open to considering an alternative cost base if you can provide a reliable source that demonstrates the cost of a similar velvet-covered sofa. Our objective is to reach a fair and reasonable resolution that reflects the true value of the item.

Cracked Tile Responsibility
Regarding the cracked tile, this damage was reported two months after your move-in date, which suggests that it was not a pre-existing issue. The cost we are requesting, £350, reflects the expense of hiring a professional to replace only the broken tiles. This figure was calculated after consulting typical costs published here: Checkatrade Tiling Cost Guide: ( https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/tiling-cost/). The amount includes not only the cost of the tiles but also an allowance for the necessary preparation work, such as removing the existing cracked tiles and adhesive.

We understand that you have raised concerns that the crack may be due to poor workmanship. We are willing to consider this possibility if you can provide an expert report substantiating this claim. Without such evidence, the assumption must remain that the damage occurred after your tenancy began.

Additional Damages
Lastly, we have yet to charge for the damages caused to the walls, where holes were drilled to attach brackets. This is a significant factor that has not been included in our current claims but may be considered if we are forced to proceed with litigation.

Conclusion
In summary, it is in both parties' best interest to settle this matter outside the TDS intermediatory service. Litigation can be costly and time-consuming, and if we proceed, we will be seeking not only the current damages but also additional costs for: loss adjuster expert report and evaluation and other repairs. The proposed settlement amounts are based on market research and standard repair costs, and we are open to reviewing alternative evidence should you provide it.

We hope that you will find this proposal reasonable and choose to avoid the unnecessary expenses of litigation.

There's a couple things I'm unsure of with this message. I don't know why they're using 50% of the market price of random sofas online for which the only similarities with the couch in the actual property is the colour and size. I'm not sure if it comes under our responsibility to provide an expert report on the crack being caused by incorrect installation. And lastly, we have NEVER drilled any holes in this house and have no idea what he is talking about. I'm unsure if they've now drilled new holes and are trying to blame it on us, or if there were some previously drilled holes that we didn't notice during our tenancy that the landlord is surfacing up now to scare us off. We still believe she has no pictures or videos of the property just before or during our tenancy, so we don't know how she would substantiate this claim.

I'd like to know if all the time, effort and potential money that this letting agent is saying we'd have to put in for this is actually something we'd have to deal with? Or is the landlord saying this because of their lack of evidence (no price/age of couch and no photos just before or during tenancy) and these are all costs she'll have to end up paying?

Thanks

First of all, it's good they're responding and engaging reasonably.

" The cost we have requested for the Edwardian Cobalt Blue Medium Velvet 5-Seater Corner Sofa has been calculated at 50% of the current market price."
That's not automatically wrong. They're quantifying their loss and asking for compensation. Sofas haven't changed massively in price, so half the cost of a new sofa is likely to be about the loss of half an equivalent sofa's life.

If you think the sofa isn't an equivalent make a sensible counter offer. That looks a little expensive for student shared accommodation, but I don't know what the one you wrecked was like.

The cracked tile. You don't have to provide anything to prove your view of events. If it goes to adjudication or court the decision is based on what's most likely, that it was a existing defect of some kind or one of you (or a visitor) broke it.
My initial thought is that a response based on @HandyMan 's view of the cause of the damage might be sensible. "We have shown pictures of the damage (and the crack's spread over time) to an expert and their view is...". But my confidence isn't high. You might get some kind of discount, or a vague suggestion that their fitter will check the support.

The drilled holes. I would simply point out that a) you have never drilled any holes and b) "not claiming for damage you assert was done by us, but using the threat of increasing your claim if we do not settle, is the kind of borderline unlawful and shoddy practice that your agency should disassociate itself from. It will, while we hope it won't come to that, look absolutely terrible in court."

Conclusion. The TDS intermediary service is not litigation. And it is free. You cannot seek "additional costs for: loss adjuster expert report and evaluation and other repair". The landlord is required to fully mitigate their losses and this seems to indicate that they are a) not intending to do this and b)repeating their previous threat.

I'd possibly make the point that you are unsure why they are researching anything. There claim is for a loss, and should be based on the cost of the damaged items, not the cost to repair or replace them. You appreciate that this is probably a reasonable approach given the circumstances, but presumably the landlord knows precisely how much the sofa cost, for example.

That's a bit of a brain dump, but you get the gist..

Quote from: jpkeates on August 29, 2024, 06:40:23 AMIf you think the sofa isn't an equivalent make a sensible counter offer. That looks a little expensive for student shared accommodation, but I don't know what the one you wrecked was like.

Per the original post, it sounds less than luxurious:

Quote from: Pri2003 on August 12, 2024, 11:09:57 PMThe only thing we can think of that caused this deterioration is sometimes one of our flatmates would drop onto the couches after a long day, but we never did anything intentionally harmful such as stand on them. I will say though, these couches are really cheap and poor quality, with next to no cushioning on the base, so they were already quite uncomfortable and prone to breaking to begin with.

I'm not even sure I'd concede that the alleged damage is anything more than natural wear and tear of a cheap old sofa that was next kin to knackered on Day One. I shouldn't wonder if the landlord had tried to tap the previous tenants for the cost of a replacement as well. I'd certainly be asking when it was bought and for how much before I entertained the notion of shelling out half the cost of a new one.

It's likely this sofa is "dipped into" year after year, and has 'provided' very much money during the ownership the Landlord has had.

It is probably referred to as "Old Faithful".

Stand fast. It's not your responsibility to prove anything, or get any backup expert opinion either. Just advise them you'll go the ADR route - they can decide when the Landlord provides their evidence (a lot of which they do not have). That's what I'd do - as they've been communicating right now, test that a little bit more. There's a great word - "disabuse" - often used in the sentence - "disabuse you of the notion that..." - try to make use of that. Have some fun with it.