SMF - Just Installed!

Weird one... another house has some kind of CCTV, it seems...

Started by Hippogriff, June 25, 2018, 08:47:23 AM

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Hippogriff

I recently moved a new Tenant into a refurbished property... lovely little mid-terrace in a nice community, pleasant neighbours (the ones I've bumped into anyway). Last night the new Tenant rings me and informs me that one of the neighbours (the terrace house where the terrace does a right-angle turn) has a camera pointing into her home / my house... focusing on the first floor rear-facing bedroom (or so she thinks)!

I was obviously tempted to say "any issue - or dispute - you may have with a neighbour is down to you to resolve" as is the Landlord Mantra. However, I am so curious I am going out there to take a look at this tonight. If it's verified then I'm not going to get involved beyond giving her a bit of advice... I just want to see it for myself. I think I will advise her to call the Police, rather than knock on their door - as this feels quite a serious breach of privacy (if it's the case).

Plus, I was definitely under the impression that if a house has what you'd call CCTV installed, there must now be signs placed, saying that this is happening - due to GDPR.

Has any other Landlord ever run into something like this? She commented, also, that as she was putting washing out she happened to look up at their first floor window to see an old man just starting at her! She said it was like something out of a film... the kind of film I probably wouldn't watch. I have been in the property off and on for several months and there's been no indication of problems or there being any odd-balls around.

Martha

Voyeurism aside, I was under the impression that residential/domestic use does not come under GDPR, unless it unwittingly monitors a public area.

For example, not authoritative, but a very quick google gives ...

https://www.kinesense-vca.com/2017/12/05/what-do-the-gdpr-rules-mean-in-relation-to-cctv/

Simon Pambin

According to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/domestic-cctv-using-cctv-systems-on-your-property if the field of view of the camera extends beyond the boundary of your own property then it ceases to to be regarded as domestic processing and thus falls under data protection legislation. What anybody will do about it is another matter, although a camera blatantly aimed at another dwelling occpied by a vulnerable single female ought to be treated more seriously than one that just happens to include the ankles of passers-by on the pavement.

I don't think you can do much about someone looking out of a window, as that's what windows are for, by and large. It's when you get people looking in through the window that the trouble starts!

Hippogriff

I agree... people looking out of their window (at anything) is not something one can rail against (the man could even say "what's she doing, looking in my window?"... the camera supposedly pointed at the house is another matter entirely. However, this is a new Tenant and although I vetted her myself, by doing the viewing, I could have been (or be in the process of being) duped, and I need to understand her motivation for raising this on day 2... if she is genuine and the situation is genuine then I'd be just as upset as she seems.

If she is correct, the area being recorded is definitely outside the boundaries of the premises (where the recording is taking place). I may have got a wild one here...

Martha

HG, perhaps the answer is to setup your own CCTV camera pointed at his CCTV camera  ;D

Hippogriff

This story gets weirder... well, in my world, it's already off-the-chart.

I visited last night. I was pointed to a camera - that is inside the other house. I think it's a camera. I'm not 100% sure. It's a wall-mounted dome-like camera - but I'd not say, for definite, it's pointing at my Tenant's home... that much is far less than certain. The only way I would be able to ascertain this would be to engage with said neighbour directly, and ask (which I don't think is wise) or involve the Police to check on the Tenant's behalf. The fact is... I don't believe that the camera is new - I reckon it's been there for ages, and no-one ever noticed it... and I bet it's covering an inside room, maybe like a form of baby monitor or something (but the couple there are old). I don't know what to make of it. I told the Tenant that if she felt like it, she should take a wander down to the local cop shop and seek advice there - she has agreed to that.

Now... where it gets more interesting. She's also convinced that next door is being used as a "bail house". My first question was - what's a bail house? She reckons it's where this old couple put people up on a temporary basis while they're on probation or summat... now she's concerned that rapists, murderers and paedophiles are all living next door, taking photos of her children! I obviously have seen nothing to indicate this... I spent a lot of time there over the last few months, doing work, at different times of day, and it was always dead quiet... she now reckons there's been loud music at odds times (I never heard it, she didn't record it). I told her I would do some research into this... to find out if the property is being used as part of some programme or something, and - if so - maybe they can reassure her that it's only a certain type of person (prisoner? I don't know!) who is lodged there... not your murderers. I don't know where to start.  :D I prepared her for the fact they might not talk to me as I don't live there... but I also showed her the Law Society Property Information Form from when I bought it, clearly stating there are no disputes or complaints about this or nearby property... obviously the Vendor could lie, but I think he did not.

Yes, I've got a live one here...

heavykarma

From your description of the houses and local community, I would be amazed if the authorities would attempt to use such a property as a bail house.There is usually a lot of protest and local opposition before such places are allowed,often reported in the local press.I cannot imagine an elderly couple being used to supervise such an establishment.There would be comings and goings,folk stood outside having a smoke.
The most likely explanation is that your tenant is at best a bit jittery because of past experience,at worst quite deranged.In your situation I would seriously consider taking a chaperone along when visiting,if she sees sinister threats where none exist.Never a dull moment.Look forward to hearing the next twists! 


Hippogriff

I don't even know which authority it would be... I've approached the Probation Service in the area, via an inept email (admitting my lack of knowledge about the whole scenario)... but I haven't a clue whether it should be the Council, the Police, the Courts... anything, something else! Who is it that allows such a thing, if indeed, it is allowed?

heavykarma

The son of someone in my town went a bit mad,and while awaiting trial was in a  bail hostel.She told me it was  an old run-down ex-hotel,in a rough  inner-city area.He had to report to a probation officer,and they had a live-in social worker.I doubt they would billet people with an elderly couple in a nice little row of houses.I would imagine it does come under the probation/social services dept.

Hippogriff

Apparently, there's some secrecy to it all?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4278770/Is-there-a-bail-hostel-in-your-area.html (but I need something much more current than this).

The postcode does not appear here. Nor does the Parliamentary Constituency. The closest would be Barnsley West and Penistone. The Parliamentary Constituency the property is in does not appear here.

Does not appear here http://freedom.is/open.php#engwal

This reassures me, somewhat:

"Bail Hostels are a type of Open Prison, used as an alternative to full prison, and a resettlement aid for prisoners who are nearing the end of their sentences. They are currently run in England & Wales by the NPS. Other region's agencies are described in the sections for those regions. The HMPS is set to turn into the NOMS and merge with the NPS; this new agency will also run the Bail Hostels. Whether it will list them publicly or re-categorise them as Category E Prisons remains entirely unclear."

I'm assuming Category E would mean low risk... more research ongoing...

Hippogriff

And this doesn't reassure me:

"There are 101 hostels, which are located in communities across England and Wales. They vary in size (from 10 to 45 bed spaces), presentation, degree of modernisation and what they offer. They provide a structured re-entry into the community, chiefly to those who have been released from prison following serious violent and/or sexual offences. Most hostel residents pose a high or very high risk of serious harm. However, it is the risk of serious harm combined with complex needs that makes work with offenders in hostels challenging. Given the profile of the risk of harm for hostel residents, the great majority of these cases are managed by NPS staff."

But this house would definitely not be a 10-bedder, that's for sure. So I don't think it can be what is now termed Approved Premises.

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Probation-Hostels-2017-report.pdf

heavykarma

Before getting further into it,has the tenant got any bit of evidence to suggest that the neighbours are watching her,and that there is a bail hostel? If it's anything like where I live,the local corner shop or pub would be the best place to find out the local gossip.LIkewise,is there a Neighbourhood watch contact you could have a chat with? A bail hostel would stick out like a sore thumb,no way would it be run from your kind of house.If she is not reassured after talking to the police,I would ignore further  complaints from her.Has she said what she expects you to do,is she looking to move out and seeking an excuse? Very odd!

Hippogriff

She got it from talking to the neighbours on the other side... could be unfounded. I also thought - does she think she's made a mistake with the tenancy and want to end the 6 month fixed term early, or does she want to fish for a rent reduction (one that I would be willing to offer up - don't tell her!)... but nothing came out on that front when I visited. Therefore I concluded that she was entirely genuine in her concerns... I mean, it's a fair enough concern to have (but it would be nice for concerns of this nature to have a foundation based in fact - however, it doesn't help when information on this is hard to uncover (for good reason, I accept)).

If it did end up to be true, and she decided to leave because of that, then I really don't know where that would leave me with this property long-term.

Hippogriff

My email to the @probation.gsi.gov.uk email address has just had a return receipt - implying it's at least been opened by someone. Whether that gets me anywhere at all is yet to be seen.

heavykarma

Did the vendor live there,or was he a landlord? Either way,you may have a claim against him for withholding information.I would also be thinking of putting a note through the neighbour's door,asking them to ring you.This could be Chinese Whispers.Most importantly,you have seen nothing to suggest dodgy people are living there,or seen police or prison vans.I have read that some parts of the south coast have become very run-down,with previous hotels and grand houses being turned into bail hostels etc.The fact that the tenant seems rational does not mean she is not manipulative or mad.My last tenant was both. 

heavykarma

Just a thought,could you go online and check the Land Registry and Electoral Roll,see who lives there and owns the place?

Hippogriff

Quote from: heavykarma on June 27, 2018, 08:56:59 AMDid the vendor live there,or was he a landlord? Either way,you may have a claim against him for withholding information.

He was a first-time HUTH wannabee doing a re-refurbishment. So, the person before that would've been resident. Like me, he may have just been genuinely unaware.

Hippogriff

Quote from: heavykarma on June 27, 2018, 09:05:08 AMJust a thought,could you go online and check the Land Registry and Electoral Roll,see who lives there and owns the place?

Absolutely. But I think my main thrust - on behalf of the Tenant, but also for myself - is whether someone in authority can tell me - yes or no - this property is used for that, or something like that. I could talk to the people in there... I could talk to other neighbours... I don't trust what I'll hear, so I don't want to. If it was only for the Tenant I'd be supportive but probably be saying something like "it's down to you to make yourself comfortable, you're signed-up to the AST whatever, sorry"... however I am wanting to know for myself too, so I'd like to go through channels (assuming I can find the right channel).

Hippogriff

Quote from: heavykarma on June 27, 2018, 08:56:59 AMThe fact that the tenant seems rational does not mean she is not manipulative or mad.

Understood and, yes, I was wary some play was about to start... but nothing has arisen yet and she freely admits that she loves the house itself... "no problems at all, everything is nice"... she hasn't even started to say it's not worth as much as I'm charging (it isn't).

heavykarma

There's nowt so queer as folk.Except for me and thee.And I'm not so sure about thee.

heavykarma

A friend who used to be a secretary to an M.P. says your local person would know of such places in the constituency,and possibly the town councillor for that ward would also be able to deal with your query,even if off the record.

Hippogriff


Hippogriff

Quote from: heavykarma on June 27, 2018, 09:52:50 AMA friend who used to be a secretary to an M.P. says your local person would know of such places in the constituency,and possibly the town councillor for that ward would also be able to deal with your query,even if off the record.

One of the 3 Councillors I wrote to already responded, saying he has forwarded my email onto an Officer he hopes can help. Good call.

Hippogriff

I have the contact details of a Case Officer at the Council, and hope to make progress... not managed to make contact yet, left a couple of voicemails.

heavykarma

Did the tenant do as she agreed,and check with the police? Hope no news is good news!

Hippogriff

I am going to follow-up once I've got something myself... so I've not chased the Tenant, yet, when I've not managed anything. But no further complaints from her, no.


Hippogriff

So, two things happened... resulting in a good final situation.

Firstly, the Case Officer got in touch with me and listened to what I could relay, then said she'd go and visit my Tenant... which she did. She was not explicit, in any way, about what possible uses this property might have, but did say she could put the Tenant's mind at rest, so I left it at that. She visited and the Tenant said she gave her a Noise Diary and her contact details, this reassured her. The Tenant also said that she'd not had further issues. Then, finally - and after a long time, I received an email response back from the "Head of Public Protection, National Probation Service (NE)" which confirmed this was not an Approved Premises.

I visited the Tenant and she said that things are fine now... even admitting the fact it might have been new home jitters on some level. The Case Officer who'd seen her was going to re-visit after a week, but the Tenant said she didn't think it was necessary now, so she phoned the Case Officer and then the Case Officer phoned me, relaying that fact. So I think all is good now.

I still do not know about the camera, or whether it was discussed at any level... I elected to try and remain hands-off, but to help the Tenant finding the right path to take as much as I could... especially as I was very curious myself.

heavykarma

What a relief,so pleased you got to the bottom of it.The camera may have been a red herring,and the neighbours who started the rumour may have been either confused or even a bit malicious.