UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi all,

Feel a little confused by when i can and cant ask tenants to leave in a fair fashion.

if i had a family - single mother with 4 children - renting a property.

They have been there a few years i believe - i had purchased it around a year ago.

The rental income is good.
They pay on time.

They dont look after the house too well - but i almost knew this when i purchased the house.

Ive spent thousands in damp damage etc in the last year alone.

They are lovely people and i dont wish them homeless.

But i wonder - if after their 12 month tenancy is over. Am i within my rights to ask them to leave?

I have effectively rented my property to them for 12 months right? after this i am able to give notice?

is this correct?

In this instance - I really would like to have the house back, clean it, remove damp, gut the house abit, and make it future proof. and then get some slightly more caring tenants when its done.

Now because i am no hurry - i would give them a very polite written notice - as well as confirming they i would provide reference and give their deposit back.

I would perhaps offer them 3-4 months to find a new home to move to.

When buying the house i thought that after the contact ends, i simply have to give the 4 weeks notice and they have to leave my property. But im not sure how true this.

Anyway - please advise on any information that may be of use to me.

Id like them gone, but in a kind manner and in no rush - i dont want the family stressed.

Thank you for any advice

Alan

The most simple approach is to talk to them and explain what you are planning.
But they're unlikely to simply leave, you might consider offering them some money to do so.

But a family with a single parent and four children is unlikely to find it easy to find a new property and actually moving is likely to be quite stressful in itself.
You're not going to get a family to move out of their home without causing them stress. That's a daft idea.

You can't just ask them to leave, and their lease doesn't just end so they have to move out (assuming they're in England).
You have to give them a specific notice, and there are a number of preconditions to that notice that have to be satisfied in order to make it valid (and some of them will be difficult to prove if you bought the property part way through an existing tenancy).
And, if they don't leave, you'll have to take them to court and evict them.

I am not at all sure why you want to evict a decent rent paying tenant, they're a valuable asset.

This seems crazy to me.

Its my house, and they have rented it from me for 12 months.

Absolutely understand it would be stressful and hard for them to find another home - hopefully you see from my original post that i wish them no hard times.

Well firstly, i want the house to be empty - so i can spend a few months doing it up.

They are not looking after it, windows are always closed, Damp issues. etc

But alternatively - if i do the property up - i may wish to live in it.


So you are saying that i can never legally decide that i want the house to myself?

That i could never ask them leave even if i give them 6 months?

so that i can do the house up as its in poor state.

They may pay their bill, but honestly they cost me more money than i make - ive replaced the floor boards in the bathroom twice in one year as they overflow the bath etc. Ongoing damp problems as they dont open windows.


Having them there - messaging me every couple of weeks about damp, mold, floor boards etc is getting tedious - id like to gut the house and make it nice.

anyway

I feel that i am totally missing something here.

Surely its my home, their tenancy is done. I kindly explain to them that i want my property back and will give them their deposit back and 6 months to find a suitable home.

If you could explain a little more that would be very helpful.

Thank you

I have just found this paragraph which interests me:

"You do not have a right to ask a tenant to leave because you don't like them, nor do you have a right to ask them to leave because you want to rent to somebody who is willing to pay more. You made a contract with them, and both parties must honor the terms."


So to me this reads - as soon as they sign a 12 month rental agreement on my house, they can stay their forever providing they pay rent on time and look after the property within the agreement terms.

Is this accurate.

They have complete control of that house unless i take legal action (based only on them not looking after the house) - or pay them off to leave?

Hmm what i have been reading is that, once over the 12 months and onto a periodic state - i can ask them to leave and give them 60-90 days notice legally.

This seems different to what you're saying, unless I am misunderstanding.

Alan

Quote from: EasyA on August 16, 2022, 12:13:33 PM
I feel that i am totally missing something here.

Yes you are!

You are missing some really basic landlord training.

I cannot imagine how you thought buying a house with tenants in situ was a good idea without this knowledge.

Do you employ an agent, or do you do everything yourself? Did you issued the tenant all the correct paperwork when you took over the tenancy, as this will have a bearing on whether you can issue them a Section 21 notice to end the tenancy.

Quote from: EasyA on August 16, 2022, 09:58:10 AM
But i wonder - if after their 12 month tenancy is over. Am i within my rights to ask them to leave?

I have effectively rented my property to them for 12 months right? after this i am able to give notice?

Yes ... sort of. You can give them two months' notice to leave at the end of the fixed period or at any point thereafter (assuming you don't enter into another fixed-term contract, of course). However, as jpkeates points out, that doesn't mean they'll automatically pack their bags and leave on that date.

Firstly, the notice has to be a formal Section 21 notice: you can't just use any old form of words - although there's nothing to stop you communicating your intentions less formally beforehand.

Secondly, your Section 21 notice must be valid at the point it is served. This is where it can trip you up if you haven't protected the deposit, issued the prescribed information, provided a copy of the EPC and the How to Rent guide, given them the annual gas safety certificate etc. Something like this flowchart is a good place to start if you want to check whether your Section 21 is valid: https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

Assuming you've served a valid notice and all the paperwork is in order then, come the date stipulated ... nothing much happens. If your tenants don't leave, you can't evict them yourself. You'll have to apply to the court for an accelerated possession order and, if necessary, engage bailiffs to remove them. This takes many months.

Ideally you want to avoid all that, so your best bet is to make them want to move of their own accord. Don't hire a mariachi band to play outside their window every Wednesday night. Just be very clear with them that they're definitely going to have to move in the not-too-distant future, give them plenty of time to look for somewhere else (consider how long it would take you to find a place and move, especially with school-age kids in the equation) and do what you can to help them secure their new place - a glowing reference, flexibility over the deposit and/or the notice they have to give you, and maybe even a bit of assistance with the costs of moving. It'll work out cheaper in the long run.

If they're damaging the property (by leaving baths running), you should be charging them to repair the damage they cause.
There's no way a rental property should be losing you money.

Why one earth did you buy a tenanted property when you don't know how to be a landlord?

To see how difficult it might be to get back possession of your property have a look at the form you'd have to complete to ask a court for a possession order (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/935902/n5b-eng.pdf) and think how many of the questions you'd be able to answer and what you'd do if you were asked to show evidence for your answers.

Have you given the tenants the notices required to confirm that you're their landlord and that you are now the property owner?

Let's cut to the chase...

They've been renting for about a year... it seems the Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement signed (with who as Landlord, you or the previous owner?) should have an end date in it. If that is something recently gone, or sometime soon... or even years ago... they are or soon will be on a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.

At this point you have your legal route to get your property back.

It's called Section 21... forget about 60 days, 90 days, 6 months... you just serve a Section 21 which has at least 2 months notice. If the Tenant does leave around then - all is good. If not - you still have the legal route open, but you need to follow further steps to get a Possession Order... then, eventually, physical eviction. Of course, everyone hopes it doesn't come to that.

Section 21 is what you need. It's a no-reason no-fault eviction. But it can take time (beyond the 2 months). It also requires some prerequisites that you need to make sure you're in the clear on. Have a look at it - plenty of information out there - it's not a semi-hidden thing.

Quote from: Simon Pambin on August 16, 2022, 02:38:23 PM

Quote from: EasyA on August 16, 2022, 09:58:10 AM
But i wonder - if after their 12 month tenancy is over. Am i within my rights to ask them to leave?

I have effectively rented my property to them for 12 months right? after this i am able to give notice?

Yes ... sort of. You can give them two months' notice to leave at the end of the fixed period or at any point thereafter (assuming you don't enter into another fixed-term contract, of course). However, as jpkeates points out, that doesn't mean they'll automatically pack their bags and leave on that date.

Firstly, the notice has to be a formal Section 21 notice: you can't just use any old form of words - although there's nothing to stop you communicating your intentions less formally beforehand.

Secondly, your Section 21 notice must be valid at the point it is served. This is where it can trip you up if you haven't protected the deposit, issued the prescribed information, provided a copy of the EPC and the How to Rent guide, given them the annual gas safety certificate etc. Something like this flowchart is a good place to start if you want to check whether your Section 21 is valid: https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

Assuming you've served a valid notice and all the paperwork is in order then, come the date stipulated ... nothing much happens. If your tenants don't leave, you can't evict them yourself. You'll have to apply to the court for an accelerated possession order and, if necessary, engage bailiffs to remove them. This takes many months.

Ideally you want to avoid all that, so your best bet is to make them want to move of their own accord. Don't hire a mariachi band to play outside their window every Wednesday night. Just be very clear with them that they're definitely going to have to move in the not-too-distant future, give them plenty of time to look for somewhere else (consider how long it would take you to find a place and move, especially with school-age kids in the equation) and do what you can to help them secure their new place - a glowing reference, flexibility over the deposit and/or the notice they have to give you, and maybe even a bit of assistance with the costs of moving. It'll work out cheaper in the long run.

Thank you so much this was really constructive and useful.

It seems i would be in the clear to serve a section 21 should i wish to after their contract ends.

Lots to think about for me.

Really appreciate the help

Thanks

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 16, 2022, 03:20:52 PM
Let's cut to the chase...

They've been renting for about a year... it seems the Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement signed (with who as Landlord, you or the previous owner?) should have an end date in it. If that is something recently gone, or sometime soon... or even years ago... they are or soon will be on a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.

At this point you have your legal route to get your property back.

It's called Section 21... forget about 60 days, 90 days, 6 months... you just serve a Section 21 which has at least 2 months notice. If the Tenant does leave around then - all is good. If not - you still have the legal route open, but you need to follow further steps to get a Possession Order... then, eventually, physical eviction. Of course, everyone hopes it doesn't come to that.

Section 21 is what you need. It's a no-reason no-fault eviction. But it can take time (beyond the 2 months). It also requires some prerequisites that you need to make sure you're in the clear on. Have a look at it - plenty of information out there - it's not a semi-hidden thing.

Thank you

Appreciate your response, very helpful!

Alan

Regarding deposit and prescribed information.

I have the deposit scheme certificate which was set up by the previous landlord and their letting agent.

Must i redo this, and get new prescribed information, or am i ok.

Can i assume the prescribed information relating to that deposit was supplied by the previous agent/landlord - and does this leave me unaccountable.

OR

Does it fall on me to contact the deposit company - and ask for prescribed information to supply to the tenant. At which point it would be several years past the 30 days after giving the landlord the deposit (not me - the previous landlord).

Again thanks for your support.

You need to be able to show that the tenant was given all of the documentation that has to be in place before a section 21 notice has been served.
So there's not much harm in giving them it all again, just to be sure.

You should be able to create the prescribed information online from where you have the deposit protected.

Quote from: EasyA on August 17, 2022, 07:31:56 AM
I have the deposit scheme certificate which was set up by the previous landlord and their letting agent.

Must i redo this, and get new prescribed information, or am i ok.

Can i assume the prescribed information relating to that deposit was supplied by the previous agent/landlord - and does this leave me unaccountable.

Sorry to say this, but you do not seem cut out to be a direct landlord. You'd be better off with an agent. Or at least do some learning before you let your property out again.

You haven't said which scheme your tenant's deposit is protected with and whether it's custodial or insured (most likely custodial), but a simple Google for 'deposit change of landlord' gives you the answer.

For example:

https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/faqs/what-happens-if-the-property-is-sold-mid-tenancy/

"In the Custodial scheme, you can initiate a 'deposit transfer' into the new landlord's TDS Custodial account, or update the landlord's details through your account.

In both situations you must serve new prescribed information within 30 days of the change of landlord."

Quote from: jpkeates on August 17, 2022, 09:20:16 AM
You need to be able to show that the tenant was given all of the documentation that has to be in place before a section 21 notice has been served.
So there's not much harm in giving them it all again, just to be sure.

You should be able to create the prescribed information online from where you have the deposit protected.

Thank you

Everything has been given to the tenant but i cant be sure the previous landlord gave them the prescribed information - so ill resupply this.

Quote from: EasyA on August 17, 2022, 12:28:43 PM

Quote from: jpkeates on August 17, 2022, 09:20:16 AM
You need to be able to show that the tenant was given all of the documentation that has to be in place before a section 21 notice has been served.
So there's not much harm in giving them it all again, just to be sure.

You should be able to create the prescribed information online from where you have the deposit protected.

Thank you

Everything has been given to the tenant but i cant be sure the previous landlord gave them the prescribed information - so ill resupply this.

I mean, i impulse bought a few houses with tenants in - money is not a huge concern, I just wanted something to do really - its nice to be occupied.

So - me not being cut out to be a direct landlord - is a silly statement - you know nothing about me.

Have i entered into something with less knowledge than required - ABSOLUTELY.

I think the consequences - of things not going my way - would not necessarily cause me financial issue - where as it perhaps would for you - perhaps this is what you comment is based on.

I see no reason why i am not cut out to develop into a reasonable landlord.

Thank you for any advise you may have supplied between negativity

Quote from: EasyA on August 17, 2022, 12:49:53 PMI mean, i impulse bought a few houses with tenants in - money is not a huge concern, I just wanted something to do really - its nice to be occupied.

So - me not being cut out to be a direct landlord - is a silly statement - you know nothing about me.

Well, that's a little unfair.
I do know something about you.
I know that you don't know much about being a landlord, and that's a tremendously risky position from which to buy a tenanted property.

QuoteI think the consequences - of things not going my way - would not necessarily cause me financial issue - where as it perhaps would for you - perhaps this is what you comment is based on.

If you get it badly wrong, you can go to prison (it's rare, but it happens.)
Landlords can get fined 10s of thousands of pounds or not get paid thousands of pounds of rent they're due - so yes that might cause me a "financial issue".

I really think you're going to struggle to evict this tenant, but that's based on a number of assumptions I've made, fair enough.

QuoteI see no reason why i am not cut out to develop into a reasonable landlord.

Neither do I - coming here and asking a question, for example, seems a very positive sign.

QuoteI see no reason why i am not cut out to develop into a reasonable landlord.

Neither do I - coming here and asking a question, for example, seems a very positive sign.
[/quote]

Fingers crossed.

No urgent rush to evict. May not even go though with it.

Very glad i asked the question here!

I did not realise what was involved.

Thank you to all

It was me, not jpkeates, who said: "Sorry to say this, but you do not seem cut out to be a direct landlord."

Note the word "seem".  The above is the impression that your posts have given.

If your tenant investigates the matter and if the deposit has not been properly protected or the PI correctly served, you could be liable for full return of the deposit (with no deductions) plus a mandatory penalty (to go to the tenant) of between 1 times and 3 times the value of the deposit. You will have no defence against this.

I first came onto this forum years ago to have a rant.I got very short shrift.I stayed here to learn,and after 20 years as a landlord there is still loads more I don't know. I think what others meant was that being a landlord is not a hobby any more-if ever it was.Every year there seem to be more regulations,more financial pressures.Even if you are financially very comfortable,there are some predatory tenants just waiting to catch you out,and the consequences of a slip-up can be dire. Personally,if money was no object and I wanted a pastime to keep me busy I would not  choose BTL.This is a friendly and helpful place though,and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on. 

Quote from: heavykarma on August 17, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
This is a friendly and helpful place though, and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on.

This is a friendly and helpful place though (sometimes with a rough and tumble tell-it-like-it is attitude), and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on.

Quote from: heavykarma on August 17, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
I first came onto this forum years ago to have a rant.I got very short shrift.I stayed here to learn,and after 20 years as a landlord there is still loads more I don't know. I think what others meant was that being a landlord is not a hobby any more-if ever it was.Every year there seem to be more regulations,more financial pressures.Even if you are financially very comfortable,there are some predatory tenants just waiting to catch you out,and the consequences of a slip-up can be dire. Personally,if money was no object and I wanted a pastime to keep me busy I would not  choose BTL.This is a friendly and helpful place though,and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on.

Thank you - seems like a good place!

And certainly seem like you all have lots of knowledge!

Definitely more than i thought involved in this - but then - i like to learn - so that could be good!

Ive definitely landed on my feet with the tenants in the properties i bought - other than this one family who dont seem to understand the laws of water, rot and damp!

Thanks again

Quote from: HandyMan on August 17, 2022, 08:38:39 PM

Quote from: heavykarma on August 17, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
This is a friendly and helpful place though, and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on.

This is a friendly and helpful place though (sometimes with a rough and tumble tell-it-like-it is attitude), and between us there is a lot of experience to draw on.

So far its been incredibly helpful - i appreciate your help and guidance also Handyman!

Quote from: heavykarma on August 17, 2022, 04:47:09 PMPersonally,if money was no object and I wanted a pastime to keep me busy I would not  choose BTL.

Every now and again, not often, mind. HK says something that deserves to be made into a plaque.

Years ago I certainly took pride in offering good, sound properties at a reasonable price to Tenants I respected as my customers. Over the years you can become jaded as you are tricked and taken advantage of time-after-time. My most recent anecdote was a Tenant duo (I regretfully term The Tubbies) who told me one week they were replacing the shower head on the electric shower in the en-suite (at their cost). Wow, lucky old me, I thought... a new hose (for free). About a week later they told me the same electric shower was leaking water from the bottom, where the hose is. They showed me a video, it was awful, so much water was coming out of the bottom, hardly any was reaching the shower head. Even though they had another shower in the other bathroom (boiler powered) I was straight onto it... I got Triton themselves out and they simply swapped out the shower, like-for-like (except in gloss black - yuck!)... total cost £140.

The following week my Gardener came around to do the lawn and I always have a chat with him... he likes to get words of wisdom (I'm serious!) from me as I've been doing this lark for years and he lets out a property now... I made him aware of EICRs and various other stuff... but he's a bit of a Handyman as well... I casually relayed the story of the shower to him... he said, when you change the hose (not the head) of an electric shower you can often dislodge a tiny plastic ball bearing... so small it'll likely shoot straight down the plug hole... and then you'd immediately see all that water flooding out. Everything fit together. Too late to do anything about.

The Tubbies got to return the head (and host, obviously) they'd kindly purchased for a refund. By changing it over, they'd very likely 'broken' the shower. And I paid out for a whole new shower, and installation.

Then their kid rode her bike into the living room wall-mounted electric fire... seems that's down to me too... as "it was only held on with these four brackets"... yeah, the brackets it came with, specifically designed for it. I forget why I started to write this now... oh, yeah, there's nothing more I enjoy than rolling over and having my belly tickled (but it's now hard for my eyes not to narrow in suspicion when a Tenant makes contact... for anything!).

I will bask all day in that warm fuzzy feeling I always get when Hippogriff throws me a few scraps of praise.x