UK Landlord Forum / Life

hello guys first time on this forum was recommended it today

My tenant recently vacated and left significant damage to the house. She was rehoused with housing association and has told me she has no money to pay damages and is on universal credit.

The last signed tenancy agreement was for 12 months, ending Dec 2021, she then automatically went onto a rolling tenancy (no new contract).

The tenancy agreement implies that the guarantor could be liable for the damage costs but my concern is that it says "The liability of the Guarantor shall continue until the end of the Term" - does this mean only for the 12months of the agreement?

On the other hand I have read on a helpful post on this forum, that a rolling tenancy will begin when an assured shorthold tenancy ends, at the terms and conditions will remain the same (except the tenancy becomes periodic) -- does this apply to terms for the guarantor?

I would like to determine if I could pursue the guarantor as per the terms, and have attached my tenancy agreement in case that would help. I highlighted bits that seem most relevant and deleted names and signatures for privacy (all 3 parties digitally signed it).

There is lots more info on the damage but thought better to keep short. Thanks in Advance

Do you have a Check-In condition report along with good supporting photos?

Do you have a Check-Out condition report along with good supporting photos?

You took a deposit of £1,442.31.  Why are you not taking repair costs out of that?

Did you protect the deposit correctly? Did you issue the Prescribed Information to the tenant?

It may be that the guarantor agrees to pay what you are demanding when you ask - using the basis that the damage was done during the term of the agreement.
But if they don't, I think that agreement is almost unenforceable against the guarantor, but anything's possible.

It's not a great tenancy agreement and the agreement with any guarantor should be separate, be a deed and be signed separately (ideally following legal advice).

Quote from: HandyMan on August 15, 2022, 09:29:56 PM
Do you have a Check-In condition report along with good supporting photos?
Do you have a Check-Out condition report along with good supporting photos?
You took a deposit of £1,442.31.  Why are you not taking repair costs out of that?
Did you protect the deposit correctly? Did you issue the Prescribed Information to the tenant?

Hi Handyman thanks for your message

I have a check-in report signed by both landlords and tenant and before pictures

I do have a checkout report it is only signed by the two landlords and a witness as the tenant left earlier than expected

I had the deposit in a TDS scheme - I requested the full amount back (which does not cover total costs of damage) (I also only received £850 which is what the tenant agreed to, she disputed the rest but never gave any reason and did not respond to the TDS, I provided all the photo evidence to show the damage, plus invoices

Unfortunately I screwed up. I said the tenancy ended 30th April but inventory check-in report was dated 10th May, because of this they said I couldn't prove the damage was the tenant and this is the reason I didnt get the full deposit back.

In actual fact she had asked to keep the house until 9th May but when I billed her for the 9 days in May (on 2nd) she said she had already moved out and couldn't afford to pay, that we could have the house back early but it just wouldn't get cleaned as she had booked a cleaner in for the whole weekend plus carpet cleaner.
I agreed she could have the house for the 9 days no charge and the tenancy would end 30th. I could kick myself or making the mistake of not explaining this clearly and costing myself the money.

I provided the how to rent guide, energy performance certificate, tenancy agreement and inventory report.

I also had landlord insurance with cover for malicious damage by a tenant, the insurance company claim it's all accidental and nothing malicious. I disagree and have raised a dispute as some of the damage is obviously malicious to me
E.g drilling a 6 inch core hole through the interior wall to outside,
Doors damaged that have been punched/things thrown/ripped open in middle, ripped off hinges, broken door frames
Fireplace glass is smashed, front metal bent, grills pulled open and things stuffed in, painted with non fire retardant paint and marble base chipped
Kitchen work surfaces scored and stabbed throughout

There is alot more damage these are a few examples of the damage that stood out to me as malicious.

Quote from: jpkeates on August 16, 2022, 11:15:32 AM
It may be that the guarantor agrees to pay what you are demanding when you ask - using the basis that the damage was done during the term of the agreement.
But if they don't, I think that agreement is almost unenforceable against the guarantor, but anything's possible.
It's not a great tenancy agreement and the agreement with any guarantor should be separate, be a deed and be signed separately (ideally following legal advice).

Hi jpkeates thanks for your message. That doesn't sound hopeful then. Agreed we should have had a much better agreement in place. It was our first time renting out own home out while we went travelling. The tenant was a friend of a friend and we stupidly thought we could trust her and so didnt pay as much attention to detail as we should have. But she isn't the person we thought and the whole thing has turned into a bit of a nightmare.
If we end up renting it back out I would definitely pay for legal advice and would do so much differently. Just never dreamt that she would treat our home so badly we were such good landlords helped her out alot and just didn't expect this.

If anything its been a lesson learnt

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 12:27:27 PMIf anything its been a lesson learnt

It's a shame when you try and help someone out and they kick you in the teeth

It's petty of me, but if the guarantor won't cooperate I'd sue the tenant even if they have no money, just to give them a CCJ, which will damage their credit record.
And I'd mention that to the guarantor to help in their personal decision making process.

People who fall into debt through no fault of their own we should try and help; but people who cause damage and try and evade responsibility need to be helped to understand that things they do have consequences.

My guess is that there's been no apology (and if there had been I might be less of an arse about it).

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 12:27:27 PMIf we end up renting it back out I would definitely pay for legal advice and would do so much differently.

Most tenancies progress and conclude well. You don't need to expend lots of extra effort catering for outliers. Sometimes you just get unlucky, but you can do a few simple things to increase your chances. I realise this Tenant was a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend, but I find it's best to keep things professional and businesslike. I also don't hand over the task to an Agent - they're nearly always awful (again, there will be outliers). Interview the prospective Tenants by doing your own viewings... strongly consider whether to take people who need a Guarantor in the first place (not doing so will simplify things). Never feel pressured to take on someone you're not comfortable with... this is a Landlord's market.

You don't need to pay a solicitor in order to make the right choices next time.Never take anyone who needs a guarantor.Don't waste money on useless insurance cover. I would also take action to get them a CCJ.

Quote from: jpkeates on August 16, 2022, 03:18:34 PM

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 12:27:27 PMIf anything its been a lesson learnt

It's a shame when you try and help someone out and they kick you in the teeth
It's petty of me, but if the guarantor won't cooperate I'd sue the tenant even if they have no money, just to give them a CCJ, which will damage their credit record.
And I'd mention that to the guarantor to help in their personal decision making process.
People who fall into debt through no fault of their own we should try and help; but people who cause damage and try and evade responsibility need to be helped to understand that things they do have consequences.
My guess is that there's been no apology (and if there had been I might be less of an arse about it).

Thanks Jpkeates yeah it really is we were so intent on making sure they had a nice home and felt at home that we missed the most important part of looking after ourselves first.
Thats a really good idea thank-you! And its possible I could prove some of the damage was caused within the shorthold tenancy because she opened a pet sitting business within that time and used my house, which led to the carpet and garden getting ruined by all the dogs. We also gave her notice in the November and told her that her ex partner had tried to contact us to tell us the house was being damaged, she persuaded us all was fine and she was getting a restraining order against him so we said we didnt want to get involved in a domestic and would take any expenses out of her deposit to which she agreed. She was in the house for a while after that as she was waiting to be housed.

Exactly I'm not a money grabber and and am struggling myself but the fact she left us with thousands of pounds of damage and walked away to a brand new build house hits hard. No apology made up a few fake excuses and then refused to communicate unless via the TDS (to which she never responded apart from to approve the £850 of the £1400 and dispute the rest with no reason given)

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 16, 2022, 03:32:35 PM

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 12:27:27 PMIf we end up renting it back out I would definitely pay for legal advice and would do so much differently.

Most tenancies progress and conclude well. You don't need to expend lots of extra effort catering for outliers. Sometimes you just get unlucky, but you can do a few simple things to increase your chances. I realise this Tenant was a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend, but I find it's best to keep things professional and businesslike. I also don't hand over the task to an Agent - they're nearly always awful (again, there will be outliers). Interview the prospective Tenants by doing your own viewings... strongly consider whether to take people who need a Guarantor in the first place (not doing so will simplify things). Never feel pressured to take on someone you're not comfortable with... this is a Landlord's market.

Thanks Hippogriff you're right we know lots of respectful renters who keep their houses immaculate. 100% I see that now we were approached by a more suitable family directly after the tenant we took on but felt obligated to help the friend of a friend which was a mistake. Thank-you

Quote from: heavykarma on August 16, 2022, 04:33:45 PM
You don't need to pay a solicitor in order to make the right choices next time.Never take anyone who needs a guarantor.Don't waste money on useless insurance cover. I would also take action to get them a CCJ.

Thank-you heavykarma. Would you recommend a solcitor to get advice and help on proceeding with court? They have quoted me £300 plus VAT for initial advice and to look over the documents. I've just been looking into CCJs and looks like this good be a good option. Thank You

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 07:43:56 PMI'm not a money grabber and and am struggling myself but the fact she left us with thousands of pounds of damage and walked away to a brand new build house hits hard. No apology made up a few fake excuses and then refused to communicate unless via the TDS (to which she never responded apart from to approve the £850 of the £1400 and dispute the rest with no reason given)

In which case I'd definitely be making every attempt to recover all of my losses.

Good luck, you'd be amazed how much better you feel when you know they're about to open that letter with details of the legal claim you're making.

You could make a claim using the small claims court.You can do this online,up to a limit of 10k. It is cheaper than a solicitor.It is a lengthy process though.I started a claim at the start of March.Yesterday I had a preliminary court meeting with the judge.It will be 12 weeks before I then join the queue for the final court hearing.I am expecting the whole process to end up taking at least 12 months.This is not the defendant's first rodeo,so there is no guarantee of getting my money. You must be prepared for that,but revenge in the form of a CCJ could make you feel less of a victim.Good luck!

Quote from: jpkeates on August 17, 2022, 07:35:43 AM

Quote from: berryone on August 16, 2022, 07:43:56 PMI'm not a money grabber and and am struggling myself but the fact she left us with thousands of pounds of damage and walked away to a brand new build house hits hard. No apology made up a few fake excuses and then refused to communicate unless via the TDS (to which she never responded apart from to approve the £850 of the £1400 and dispute the rest with no reason given)

In which case I'd definitely be making every attempt to recover all of my losses.

Good luck, you'd be amazed how much better you feel when you know they're about to open that letter with details of the legal claim you're making.

Thanks for the encouragement will keep you updated

Quote from: heavykarma on August 17, 2022, 09:54:22 AM
You could make a claim using the small claims court.You can do this online,up to a limit of 10k. It is cheaper than a solicitor.It is a lengthy process though.I started a claim at the start of March.Yesterday I had a preliminary court meeting with the judge.It will be 12 weeks before I then join the queue for the final court hearing.I am expecting the whole process to end up taking at least 12 months.This is not the defendant's first rodeo,so there is no guarantee of getting my money. You must be prepared for that,but revenge in the form of a CCJ could make you feel less of a victim.Good luck!

Thankyou sorry to hear you've also had troubles! I hope you get justice and get the money that's rightfully yours .. did you get a solicitor to help you? As I'm unsure who to pursue for the money think I may need one

Realistically your chances of getting any money from the tenant or the guarantor are very slim.If you are wanting to get  a CCJ then it would be the tenant to go after in this case.In general guarantor agreements are worthless,so that's why many landlords won't accept them.
It is therefore best for you to spend as little of your own money as possible.My own claim is not against a tenant,it's a dodgy builder. There has been a lot of detail and information,but your case sounds much simpler.I did not use a solicitor.If you go on line there is a lot of very useful guidance on  going through the process. She may not give a damn about a CCJ of course,but it could make you feel better !

Quote from: heavykarma on August 18, 2022, 10:24:10 AM
Realistically your chances of getting any money from the tenant or the guarantor are very slim.If you are wanting to get  a CCJ then it would be the tenant to go after in this case.In general guarantor agreements are worthless,so that's why many landlords won't accept them.
It is therefore best for you to spend as little of your own money as possible.My own claim is not against a tenant,it's a dodgy builder. There has been a lot of detail and information,but your case sounds much simpler.I did not use a solicitor.If you go on line there is a lot of very useful guidance on  going through the process. She may not give a damn about a CCJ of course,but it could make you feel better !

Thanks for your advice I will check it out. I hope you get somewhere with the dodgy builder!