UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi everyone
I have tenants that have given me notice (2 months on and within a 12 month contract) on the 03/11/23 which I accepted but now they want the freedom to stay until possibly the end of their contract ending on the 23/01/24
I find the tenants unhelpful, disrespectful, and untrustworthy, and are subletting the property.
I am not sure where I stand legally if I allow them to stay after the expiry date of their notice? and I simply don't trust them!
With this problem and other issues, I want to install CCTV cameras. (If they were different tenants, I wouldn't have a problem!)
The access to the flat is at the rear of the building (see attached pic) you can see that the fence on the entrance has been damaged and you can just see the corner of a mattress, there is also a sofa and other things just dumped there from tenants of other flats that share the same entrance and communal space (which is shared by 3 other properties)
Roughly from the location of the pic, I want to install the CCTV camera, which I have permission from one property owner to do so on his wall (left side of pic), I am going to install a second CCTV camera between the corner of my building and the upstairs window, covering his building side wall (no windows) and to cover the first camera installed. I will also, put a sign up at the entrance stating - 24hrs CCTV in operation, and I intend to do this next week, or as soon as possible!
I understand that legally I can do this without any problems, but do you know, MUST I get approval from the owners of the other properties that share this access/area or is it not necessary? (There was a camera there before but it has gone now, and I was not consulted when they installed it?)
I will write to the tenants and inform them that CCTV cameras are to be installed
Does anyone know 1. that if I allow the tenants to stay after the expiry of their notice period could I have problems? And 2. does anyone know if I am able to install CCTV cameras legally?
Any advice very much appreciated
Thanks
Legepe
PS: Will not allow me to attach pic! 76.8kbs would someone please advise?
Message:
20230828_112443.jpg The attachments directory can not be located. Please notify an administrator of this problem. 76.8 KB

You're contemplating letting unhelpful, disrespectful, and untrustworthy, tenants who are subletting the property to stay longer and want to install CCTV to spy on them and asking if you should?

I am confused about what you want to achieve, and I suspect that is because you are unsure yourself. If you want your property back, it sounds very likely that they will be going soon anyway, at some point in January.If they fail to go,  you have to decide if you want to evict using S21.

As Riptide says above, why would you be considering letting them stay? The camera idea just sounds like a recipe for disaster. What are you trying to catch them out doing? Unless you think there is some serious criminal activity going on (in which case you should go straight to the police,  (who probably won't care) you risk getting into trouble yourself. You have not thought this through, calm down and do it all by the book. Good luck.   

I would have thought my questions and explanations (apart from no pic) are fairly understandable, and the reasons for me to put cameras up I would think are also understandable!
Firstly the fence/gate has been broken 3/4 times now, and I am fed up fixing it for it to be simply broken again, there are piles of rubbish dumped there, and there is graffiti all over one the external walls to my property showing explicit/obscene images
First question - if this was happening at your property wouldn't you want to protect it in someway? ie: CCTV Cameras? or would you be happy for this to continue and possibly allow something more serious to happen?
Second question is regarding the tenants and the contract and the notice given - I am simply asking if anyone knows the legal implications of allowing a tenant to remain in the property after the end of notice period?
Hope you can understand and answer these two questions, at least without being so overly critical especially without knowing full details!

You could ricinde the notice they've given, let them stay until the end of the contract, which they overstay so you have to issue a section 21 that would expire two months later and then start proceedings to get them out concluding many months later. Sounds ideal.

How are you powering these cameras and storing/transmitting the images, from the flats electrical supply?

I did ask for advice without the overly critical comments, but that's great I do get the rescind notice part, and thanks for that!
My question relating to CCTV cameras was not regarding how to power the cameras but since you've asked. Im not too sure? Do you think it would be best to either use 20 x 12v car batteries wired in parallel = 240v or if I use a wind turbine fixed to the roof. the tenants would never get to that! What do you think?

It's not possible for a tenant to rescind notice. You have to all pretend it doesn't exist and hope everyone continues to cooperate, because otherwise it all gets quite messy.
When the notice expires, the tenancy ends and a new one starts. So there's rent out of synch, there's none of the things you have to do done when a tenancy starts. All of that good stuff.

Which I think I've already told you over on Landlordzone.

Quote from: jpkeates on November 14, 2023, 06:21:03 PMIt's not possible for a tenant to rescind notice. You have to all pretend it doesn't exist and hope everyone continues to cooperate, because otherwise it all gets quite messy.
When the notice expires, the tenancy ends and a new one starts. So there's rent out of synch, there's none of the things you have to do done when a tenancy starts. All of that good stuff.

Which I think I've already told you over on Landlordzone.

Hi again jpkeates.. and thanks for getting back to me! not sure if I understand what you mean though "So there's rent out of synch, there's none of the things you have to do done when a tenancy starts. All of that good stuff."
The other thing is that its me the landlord that has to rescind the notice they have given me, or thats the way I have understood it. please tell me if I am wrong???

You're wrong. No one can "rescind" a tenant's notice.

It doesn't make sense in English for a landlord to be able to do it, you can't revoke or call back something someone else did. In contract law the parties to a contract can all (usually both) agree to void it. But in property law, a tenant's notice is final and can't be withdrawn or amended.

So the tenancy will end when the tenant's notice does.

What happens then depends on how everyone behaves. If the tenant stays a few days longer and everyone's ok with that, alls well. If the tenant stays a few days longer and you're not happy with it, they're holding over / trespassing and you can go to court to remove them and demand compensation. If you accept rent afterwards, a new tenancy begins.

Usually, everyone just muddles through and all is well. The law only matters here when it doesn't go well. Let's imagine, for example, that the tenants don't move out in January. On what basis they are occupying determines what you are able to do about it. And that basis isn't clear.

If your reason for installing cameras is to prevent the fly-tipping, you may be disappointed. I have been in this situation with a block of flats. The council will not take action for private land, and the miscreants in my experience do not have an embarassment gland.

I spent many hours shifting rubbish to the tip, and paying the council myself to remove larger items.I did not try cameras,but notices put up were torn down. It only stopped when the main culprit died of a drug overdose. You may find your cameras get vandalised,  and in any case I don't know what you could legally do with anything filmed.   

Hopefully when your tenants leave it might make a difference.