UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi all hope someone can give a bit of guidance. We have a female tenant ,dss,5 months behind,tenancy finished in Feb 18 I have informed the council she hasn't paid for 5 months they have now suspended her money.
She was given a letter in September 17 (when she signed she signed her 6 months tenancy) informing her that the property was going to be sold in 2018 when her tenancy was finished.
In Feb 18 she then decided to inform the council that the home needed repairs which we had to investigate,the council was there with us and our maintanence man.The council ticked a few very miner faults but we now know this was to drag it out for her and an eviction!
She is still in our house but leaves to live with her mum for 3-6 days at a time,
She has now blocked us from texting her and refuses to let us in for any repairs we also need to do an epc.
As I have mentioned she has not paid for 5 months can anyone please advise us on next move.
I am in the process of sending her letters recorded to prove we are trying to communicate and still access the property

Tenancy didn't finish in February 18, it turned into a periodic tenancy.

Recorded letters are not a good idea as it's easy for them not to be signed for, so not delivered, proof of postage should suffice.

Presume you've issued a valid section 21?  Just get cracking with the proper eviction route.

Why do you need an EPC?

Thanks for replying
We rang one of those companies online who  help evict
And serve section 21/8
They claim we need an epc or it may get thrown out!

You needed an EPC at the start of the tenancy.  If it has lapsed you don't need a new one.   One just needs to be in place at the time of marketing a property.

Check the validity of a section 21 here

https://markprichard.co.uk/documents/s21-validity-checker

Thanks for this info but I think it's telling us that we cannot use a section 21 so I think we will have to go and see a solicitor and find out

Which part does it stumble at?

The epc but the house is going to be sold or at this rate repossessed I think reading through other websites as well I think we could prob go for a section 8 because it's been 4 months no rent payed she has no tenancy agreement only periodic and she has breached her tenancy because she has not maintained the garden or reported any damage to us she's refusing access and does not live there most of the time she goes to stay at her mums because she can't afford to put gas or electric in to even cook! I think if she received a notice this is all she is waiting for to take to council.
She has been told to sit there and wait for a notice by the council.we tried to give her a new tenancy for 6 months but she refused and said she was only doing what she had been told to do!

Quote from: Needheroutnow on April 05, 2018, 08:46:44 PM
We tried to give her a new tenancy for 6 months but she refused and said she was only doing what she had been told to do!

It sounds bonkers that you'd offer a fixed term to a bad renter.

Council want the tenant to hang on for as long as possible but, from anocdotal stories they don't help people who make themselves intentionally homeless which is what's she's doing if she doesn't pay rent.  Whatever you want to do to the property, maintanance, epc etc write to the tenant in a professional manner and keep copies, this will help in court.  Go down the section 8 route.

Thank you for you help we really do appreciate it you do feel like
Your on your own but this site is amazing and very helpful thank you once
Again x

hi is there a template on here that i can download so i can send a letter to our periodic (squatter) tenant informing her that we need access to our property for maintanance?
as i have said before she will not allow us access anymore

It is not right to say she has no tenancy agreement,a periodic tenancy is no different in all legal respects.I don't understand how she is refusing access? Is she barricading herself in,or has she changed the locks?
The rules are give at least 24 hrs.written notice,if she does not open the door after a few minutes,use your key and go in.You don't need a template,just a polite factual statement giving notice of your visit.I would take someone with you,and take photos.

I had a tenant once who bolted himself in when I called as arranged,and put a blanket over the letter box so I could not see inside.I called out that I would give him 15 minutes,or would call the police as I feared he might harm himself.He opened the door at once,naked.
I did the inspection,and the following day the rent arrears were paid in cash.

she has changed the locks so we have no key.we have to knock on the door to ask her to leave us a key.she never leaves one for us. her tenancy agreement for the 6months finished on 19th feb2018.
she has not paid any rent since november 2017.the council have been inforned as she is dss they have now suspended her money.the council sent out a letter to her on 12th march 2018 with which has to reply to.
i rang the council today and they have informed me that have had no reply to their letter so until they do they cannot forward any money for rent to us.
so i now need to send her letters( by recorded) asking for access to the property.she informed us that she was going to move out in march she didnt.she was paid back her bond money via bank transfer (labelled deposit bond money)
this we was informed was for her to place down as a deposit for a home that she wanted to move to.(obviously not as we know now) so now i think its a section 8 that we are going to start asap.
we used to inform her via text or messenger that we needed to allow our maintenace man in but she has now blocked this so we have to knock on the door.we know shes in there because she just shouts F**K off or comes to the window and just laughs.
hence now i think correspondence through letters recorded is the way because if she does not sign for them it will surly show the court that she is being very difficult and we have tried?

Quote from: Needheroutnow on April 06, 2018, 01:02:05 PM
letters recorded is the way because if she does not sign for them it will surly show the court that she is being very difficult and we have tried?

No, it'll just show that nothing has been delivered as the postman can't deliver it.  Nothing regarding the tenant in the slightest, plausible they were out.

Courts like proof of postage and accept that letters get delivered via the Royal Mail.

You need to wise up and fast! Any tenant that used that kind of language with me would get a section 21 the same day!

You also should have issued the section 8 and section 21 notices as soon as she hit the required arrears.

You also should never return a deposit until you have checked the apartment over for damage and received the keys. (at the same time) in fact many landlords wait 10 days before returning the deposit.

Since she has her mother living close by she will not be able to claim she has no where to go.

Under no circumstances should you ever trust a tenant, even the good ones. It only takes one single trick against you to through you into 100s or even 1000s of pounds into arrears. You can be nice to them and even civil, but by no means ever trust them. Your relationship with them is a business relationship not a friendship.

Issue a section 21 AND a section 8 Immediately.
Send another letter requesting mandatory access to the property.  (this will be valuable evidence to build up your case in court. (should you need to do that later).

The council will tell her to mess you around as much as possible. This is ethically terrible, but (I believe) its entirely legal. I would advise you not to tell the council that she is making herself intentionally homeless until she has moved out of your property (you can call the council after you have dealt with your own property possession.

Quote from: Riptide on April 04, 2018, 12:10:49 PM
Check the validity of a section 21 here

https://markprichard.co.uk/documents/s21-validity-checker

Riptide: the above link is truly excellent!
Great find.
Thanks for sharing!

No problem!

I would recommend to speak to the council and demand your tenant's housing allowns to be paid directly to you, at least from the month when they suspended it.
I am currently dealing with the difficult tenant myself. If your property is for sale and you have mortgage on it then your morgage provider can be helpful. In that case the Section 8 Notice could be served on their demand and takes 2 months.

Quote from: Riptide on April 04, 2018, 12:10:49 PM
Check the validity of a section 21 here

https://markprichard.co.uk/documents/s21-validity-checker

Thanks for referencing that Riptide.  A useful resource. 
But it raises the question of whether a "how to rent" guide needs to be served when an AST goes into periodic (Step 18 I think).

This sounds like the same fiasco that we had with reserving prescribed information for DPS at the end of an AST.

Is a Periodic Tenancy classed as a "Replacement Tenancy" ?

Excellent question Martha.
Am afraid no perfect answer as not been tested in court (at least I can’t find it)

Replacement Tenancy, new Tenancy, renewal, SPT - a tad confusing...

The best that can be proffered is if you read HA88 s21(7) there is nothing in there excluding an SPT from being a Replacement Tenancy.

For the purposes of this section, a replacement tenancy is a tenancy—
(a) which comes into being on the coming to an end of an assured shorthold tenancy, and
(b) under which, on its coming into being—
(i) the landlord and tenant are the same as under the earlier tenancy as at its coming to an end, and
(ii) the premises let are the same or substantially the same as those let under the earlier tenancy as at that time.

I repeat not tested in court - so arguable. Piss poor draftsmanship all over this area of statute.
Safe bet is to re-serve it.

Note however if the guide has changed versions it won’t matter - you must still serve the new version of the document when tenancy becomes an SPT.

[Note as of Oct 2018 this applies to all tenancies even those prior to 2015].

Note you can download all the old versions of the How to Rent Guide from inter web.  It might be handy to do so in case you may need to reproduce the fact you served it (ahem).

Quote from: theangrylandlord on April 13, 2018, 05:32:11 AM
Excellent question Martha.
Am afraid no perfect answer as not been tested in court (at least I can't find it)

Replacement Tenancy, new Tenancy, renewal, SPT - a tad confusing...

The best that can be proffered is if you read HA88 s21(7) there is nothing in there excluding an SPT from being a Replacement Tenancy.

For the purposes of this section, a replacement tenancy is a tenancy—
(a) which comes into being on the coming to an end of an assured shorthold tenancy, and
(b) under which, on its coming into being—
(i) the landlord and tenant are the same as under the earlier tenancy as at its coming to an end, and
(ii) the premises let are the same or substantially the same as those let under the earlier tenancy as at that time.

I repeat not tested in court - so arguable. Piss poor draftsmanship all over this area of statute.
Safe bet is to re-serve it.

Note however if the guide has changed versions it won't matter - you must still serve the new version of the document when tenancy becomes an SPT.

[Note as of Oct 2018 this applies to all tenancies even those prior to 2015].

Note you can download all the old versions of the How to Rent Guide from inter web.  It might be handy to do so in case you may need to reproduce the fact you served it (ahem).

Thanks for your reply.
Having seen what a mess they made of the DPS stuff, how could they let this happen again :-(

Further to Martha's point, how critical is it that the re-serving of the Right to rent documentation is done the day the agreement becomes SPT. Will it matter if it is a day early, a week late? What happens if the tenant is on holiday in Australia?

Quote from: theangrylandlord on April 13, 2018, 05:32:11 AMSafe bet is to re-serve it.

I note this. But I am not going to go to extremes like this. I don't re-serve the AST / SPT document itself. I don't re-serve anything to do with the Deposit. I don't re-serve the GSC. I don't re-reference the Tenants. I think there is enough of a common-sense approach here to cover me for when tenancies move from the initial AST to SPT. If you start to worry about things to this kind of level I think that you'll end up living in fear of any small admin. error you might make. This is not how it's supposed to be. We are supposed to be professional, and I'm fully behind that, but that should not mean we reach the point where we're living with something hanging over our heads like a sword of Damocles.

Just keep doing the deposit stuff correctly; that's the biggest and most obvious hit if you get it wrong as a Landlord. However, I fully accept that an inability to follow through on a Section 21 is very limiting and could be [more] costly.

The Right To Rent booklet is updated, every now and again... but it is a relatively static document from what I've seen.

In my last new tenancy I had Upad do the package delivery on my behalf (actually, I did do it as well - belt-and-braces, so I maybe do go overboard, but it was my first time so I wanted to make sure) and it worked very well as a provable way of the Tenants getting everything they're supposed to get (and acknowledging it, electronically). Even the Tenants liked it (the convenience of it).

Hi can anybody now tell me as my first blog was our tenant has completely refused us any access.
So a quick catchup!
Our squatter is still in the house she has not paid for 6months the council (finally) have suspected all dss payment to her but as she has not replied to any council letters we have not been able to receive anything from the council either!!
She has since got her mum to text us and politely inform us that she will be going in June!(f***g cheek) but she is only staying at the house 2 times a week.she lives with her mum the rest.
Council have been notified as (the nerve of it)she is now waiting for our eviction notice so she can get a council house! Agreement ended feb 19th she had a letter to inform her of house sale at the end of tenancy.
The house is clearly being only used to store her s**t as she won't put nothing into storage.my biggest question is is there really no quicker way to get the scag out??
The house is being sold but at this rate repossessed!!!!
Unfortunately the house is only 4doors up from us so it's getting very heated when we see each other.
I will end up being arrested at this rate😡

Also forgot to ask if she lives the house full of her crap will we be prosecuted for dumping it on her mothers house front??
She too is now getting too loud and we are not the ones in the damn wrong🤨

Quote from: Needheroutnow on May 07, 2018, 05:00:10 PM
Council have been notified as (the nerve of it)she is now waiting for our eviction notice so she can get a council house! 

is there really no quicker way to get the scag out??

Have you or have you not issued a valid section 21 / section 8?

The eviction notice the council are talking about will be a court issued posession order, not a notice that you'd post.  Council don't automatically help people who make themselves intentionally homeless.

Quicker way?  Money talks and tenants walk.  Incentives  her to leave as gauling as it would be.

Quote from: Needheroutnow on May 07, 2018, 05:03:05 PM
Also forgot to ask if she lives the house full of her crap will we be prosecuted for dumping it on her mothers house front??
She too is now getting too loud and we are not the ones in the damn wrong🤨

A prosecution generally requires someone to do the prosecuting, right? Only you will know whether they'd take that kind of action. You seem het up; it's always best to play these games with a calm demeanour. Trust us when people tell you this. It not only benefits you, but it also has an amazing impact on the other party when they start to think you're impervious to it all. Letting the other party know you're agitated to the point of law-breaking is often what keeps them going. Part of being a Landlord is you maintaining a level of professionalism in all dealings. Yes, even if you're on the receiving-end of some right crap. Now, if repossession is looming and things like that, I can certainly understand... but hopefully you realise you aren't going to do anything positive by giving yourself a heart-attack or somehow ending up in a cell for some kind of affray or breach of the peace. Be smart.

Thank you I really do appreciate yr reply it is frustrating and yes yr right I will from now just ignore the comments and play it cool but she pressing my wrong buttons 😏
We are now just waiting for the notice and hopefully she will go.
Wish we had never started this landlord nightmare

I feel your pain!  Our first tenant was a nightmare.  He broke every rule in the contract by sub-letting, had a massive pitbull, smoked, did drugs, annoyed the neighbours and wrecked the place in three months!!  We got the police as we were dealing with his (mad) mother and took him to court.  We won...and got bleep all.  Bailiffs were useless as he was in the army and they couldn't remove goods from the army barracks.  We've learnt since then.  I'm way more choosy now and will keep a place empty until I find the right tenant.  It can be expensive but so can getting rid of bad tenants.  Do your homework and try not to get mad in front of them.  I thought we were going to end up in a fight at one point and were glad the police were there.  If you put something in writing you have time to get it right or get a second opinion before you send it.  The Councils are disgusting for telling tenants to wait until the landlord takes them to court.  I've had that a couple of times but luckily none of mine have ever stayed on beyond the Section 21 deadline.  It is personal and stressful when you deal with aggro.  You should go somewhere remote and scream your head off, take up boxing or have a stiff drink.  Whatever works for you.  Good luck.

Hi guys well we have finally started to see a it of movement "don't be silly not the squatter😏"  a section 8 was served in June by hand.she was given the 28th to vacate but of course council told her no stay where you are so now we are in the process of going to court for a possession order.

She is now £3.850 in arrears so solicitor is trying for arears "not much hope she's on benefits" will be very happy if we could just get property back so we can sell and move on with our life's.she can't afford to pay rent but can afford to buy drugs and alcohol!😏
House is empty 5 days a week still doing this as she's done for months now she stays at her mums and with d*****y friends.if we get possession of our property we will be over the moon but I'm not celebrating at that point because we have a squatter that wants a new home given to her off council before shel let go of ours so I'm guessing the bailiffs wil be involved so let's see what card it plays!!!!
The costs are rising I can asure you we will not be doing renting again😉