UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi all sorry this is long winded but I do need your advise on this one!

Our tenant has been in 3 weeks now. On the day of the handover a few minor things were spotted and written on the inventory as to be addressed and the tenant was happy to agree. 2 days later I had to return in agreement with the tenant and I noticed that these minor things were fixed apparently her dad fixed them in the contract it states that no one is allowed to fix anything other than our own tradesperson unless the tenant has written permission from the landlord.
So we had a long chat and he was only trying to help and as she was new to the property we accepted their apology and they agreed to the terms of the contract next time and we said we allow it this time as he has done a good job but needs written permission next time.
In the meantime the boiler had a gas leak and our plumber shut it off as it was dangerous and had to source a part and this left the tenant with no hot water about 5 days until the part became available and he could come back and fix it. Also the flush on the toilet broke and he could not get the part that was needed as the cistern was not available anymore.
Now this has become a large job as the cistern is behind lovely tiles. The tiles had to be removed and our plumber is not a tiler and we agreed that he could take them off to do the cistern and we will have our tradesperson in the re tile. Our tenant was unavailable that day and her dad came to let the plumber in and whilst he was trying to remove the tiles the dad began taking them off. We did not give him written or verbal consent to remove these tiles only the plumber!!!
The tiles are now removed and the cistern had to be ordered but the plumber left the tenant with a temporary flush (so usable).
All in all the tenant was left with no hot water and a temporary flush for 5 days due to the parts had to be ordered in.
I need to add she has a kettle and the electric hob and oven in the property so she has access to hot water if she boils it.

.After reading quite a nasty email from the tenant stating that she has had to go to live with her parents for a few days as she cant shower and wash her hair she demands that we reduce next months rent by half and her dad has done lots of repairs in the property because we did not do them (in 2 days from filling in the inventory) and the toilet flush needed to be pressed twice to stop the flush and he took the tiles of the toilet cistern and believes he will have to repair them too as we wont.
Basically after reading the email as being held to ransom my question is this.....

Is she legally entitled to a reduced rent and how can we stop her family with interfering with any repairs in the future.

also forgot to add we were always going to offer to pay for the dads repairs as we are kind like that but unfortunately my mother passed away and we have not had the opportunity to offer payment as of yet due to taking a week off from everything to grieve and the tenant new this and still makes horrible demands.

Anyone any thought on this?

Quote from: JIMJAM on August 30, 2023, 02:37:32 AM
I noticed that these minor things were fixed apparently her dad fixed them in the contract it states that no one is allowed to fix anything other than our own tradesperson unless the tenant has written permission from the landlord.

So we had a long chat and he was only trying to help and as she was new to the property we accepted their apology and they agreed to the terms of the contract next time and we said we allow it this time as he has done a good job but needs written permission next time.

Anyone any thought on this?

You are being too controlling and you need to de-escalate this situation asap.

You brought the "nasty email from the tenant" on yourself by the way you handled the fixing of the "minor things" where the tenant (via her dad) had "done a good job".

You should be pleased that you have a tenant who can address minor repairs for you.


You should be apologising profusely to the tenant for renting a property with a gas leak from the boiler.

Quote
also forgot to add we were always going to offer to pay for the dads repairs as we are kind like that but unfortunately my mother passed away and we have not had the opportunity to offer payment as of yet due to taking a week off from everything to grieve and the tenant new this and still makes horrible demands.

Sorry about your mother, but the above is not an excuse. It would have taken less than a minute to drop the tenant an email saying that you will pay for the dad's repairs and that you will attend to that after the funeral etc.

I saw your other thread about you wanting to change the tenancy agreement after signature and the tenant has moved in...  definitely too controlling.

I'm not sure you're in the best state to be dealing with this now, as your reaction seems completely out of line with the situation. The property isn't in the best condition to let, you have someone trying to help and you feel that they're at fault. I think you're wrong, but can understand that this isn't the best time for you to accept that.

It sounds like you are locking horns with the Dad,and causing quite unnecessary unpleasantness.Personally,I am all for tenants dealing with minor problems.He does not sound like someone who has made a hash of things,but you have been treating him like a naughty schoolboy.
I know things can break,and it can take time to get parts and repairs sorted.However,I would be feeling quite embarassed that the tenant has had so many issues in such a short time. I think you should make some gesture regarding the rent,and as Handyman says,back off and stop behaving like this.

The question is probably not best viewed as whether the Tenant is "legally entitled"... but much more about how you, as provider of a product / service, want to deal with your Tenant / customer.

The best approach to life as a Landlord is to have happy / satisfied Tenants. If they can turn their hand to the smaller (or even bigger) things around your asset - and fix or improve - then that's a bonus. All you need to do is have a little switcheroo in your head to see the benefits on offer here.

As a Landlord my best Tenants are those I've not heard from for the longest time while the rent keeps on coming in. I've said this many times before - but letting property is not about bricks and mortar - it's all about people.

One of my Tenants repaired a garden fence that blew down in the storms last year... I was told it had blown down, and was preparing to find someone to take on the work, any shell out the cost - when he told me he'd fixed it with a new panel, post and some concrete he'd "got from work" (he works in hotel maintenance or something) I was like - "here, take my money" - but because I'd got in with offer first, he made a point of refusing reimbursement of any kind (although he didn't spend anything, but he certainly spent effort). If your Tenant (or their dad) is handy and you can gain trust in their efforts... accept the repairs / improvements, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, and reconcile yourself to accepting them (as long as you are notified) and you can assess at tenancy end (if that's years from now, then all the better).

And do remember - to have no water for 5 days out of 21 must be making the Tenant think about just how unlucky they've been to take on the crappest property ever... and they will undoubtedly be wondering if you knew before and effectively conned them into taking the tenancy (even if the truth is nowhere near that). It certainly sounds like the property was not ready for let - but I can't tell if this is a property you've let before - or your first time with this particular one.

Hidden cistern toilets always look lovely - they're hidden, after all - but they're bad for maintenance - one of the things I actively avoid if considering buying a property to let. As well as any property that has a Vokera boiler. I just walk away if I see one. A personal thing.

I think  some of your replies are implying the property is in bad shape well it's only 8 years old and everything is in perfect condition. It's unfortunate the boiler and cystern has broken within 2 weeks of the tenant moving in. No landlord can fore see this and certainly not know the parts need to be ordered in so unforeseen delays.
The issue was never about not paying the dad for the works he kindly done it was the tenant didn't get written permission as I like to use my own tradesperson for my properties.
My question was
Is there a law that says the tenant is legally entitled to rent reduction
For choosing to stay at her parents as she couldn't wash her hair for 3 days... before the repair and the minor issues were to be addressed by my tradesperson having had  bad tenants ruin other properties I've learnt from this hence why written permission is needed.

I find it quite offensive that I've been made to feel like a rogue landlord with only minor repairs eg. Integrated washing machine door 2 mm out and needs adjusting when the property is high spec.

I do know that's it's best to have a good relationship with tenant and I have apologised from the start and the tenant understood that there may be delays but it was being fixed.

So if your boiler breaks down do you go and buy a new one every time so there is no delay?

Anyway I have not found these replies to be helpful as my question was not answered

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 02:09:30 AM
I find it quite offensive that I've been made to feel like a rogue landlord with only minor repairs eg. Integrated washing machine door 2 mm out and needs adjusting when the property is high spec.

It's interesting that you highlight this minor issue in your response, when the real issue is about how the relationship with the tenant (and her dad) is being handled.

IMO, and based on what you have written, de-escalation is needed rather than an appeal to what is and isn't the law regarding rent reduction. Do you want this tenancy to be put on a good footing? Do you want it to continue that way for a long time?

I am sorry for your loss but be aware Courts rarely take notice of that as an excuse.

You have no idea how lucky you are.

I suggest you go read S11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act (1985) to understand your obligations

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

or the easy read

https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/housing_conditions/responsibility_for_repairs/repairs_under_section_11
.

Most Tenants would have reported you to their Local Council immediately to avoid any chance of revenge eviction

They would also seek a refund on any loss of amenity as well as the 5 days, for example if they lost boiler they might also lose the ability to cook food and so hold you responsible for the out of pocket expenses. 

I know some Landlords that stick their Tenants in an AirBNB of their choice for any sort of boiler, water, electricity or gas issue. 

If they had reported to the Council you could be facing an Improvement Order and a fine because this is how some Councils fund their Housing Teams.

It was so mighty of you to accept their apology for them fixing your property.

You may have some valid concerns about the repairs, but you need to consider what enforcement rights you actually have, sure you can decline to renew the contract assuming you give the right legal notice and comply with all legislation.

Are you really going to take your Tenant to Court on the basis of a breach of terms you invented, most Landlords are grateful to have Tenants who repair minor things themselves, the approach I would take is that they must inform you before or when they do them.  That would at least give you a chance to review the work, but as the work was probably your responsibility in the first place you are on a hiding to nothing

You also better be sure that you have fully complied with ALL legislation

Rogue Landlords are Landlords who know there is an issue and avoid fixing it, so I am not saying you are that, but it is a short slippery slope from being a control freak to an entitled fool, so tread carefully. 

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 02:09:30 AMIs there a law that says the tenant is legally entitled to rent reduction

No, there is no specific law relating to a rent reduction.
You were in breach of contract while the property wasn't as advertised, and the tenant is entitled to compensation for their loss arising from that breach.
Based on your description, the loss was minimal, so the compensation would be low (possibly nothing - as you say, things do break).

Although it's only my opinion, I wouldn't regard that series of problems to be normal or routine.
That's a lot to go wrong with a property.
At the start of a tenancy, there are often a number of teething problems, but that seems way more than "routine."

Okay thanks for all your replies just to close this thread down  I'm not a bad landlord at all...REPEAT AGAIN!!! my property is high spec and as I said in the beginning the minor issues were found on inspection with the tenant when going through the inventory together that's why you have one! and at the time these were to be fixed by myself ASAP but the dad fixed them the same day. I asked not to as its a Landlord responsibility to fix unless we give written consent then there are no problems all round if something major happens! that. Let me just add  this is in place in the contract as my insurance becomes invalid if I don't get an invoice for the works done in my building. I have followed legislation and I am allowed to add anything to to tenancy to protect this very insurance to be valid.
I really don't understand how you as landlords can allow a repair by a tenant you don't know yet! then something major happens in the property and you are responsible maybe a safety issue ... what if a shelf fell down and something hurt them at worse killed them or they tried to fix the boiler themselves... because it does happen so who do you think will be liable??? THE LANDLORD!!!
This scenario I am in is not to make me greedy it's about making sure all is safe and working in reasonable time if it's out of my control. Apologise goes without saying and paying the dad for his time is a definite.
I guess I'm a rogue landlord for caring about my property and the tenant that's there to the best within my power efficiently and correctly.
NOT BEING CONTROLLING as I'm being accused of.
I think some of you need to respect other Landlords here and be respectful with the way you help people on here there is  more  I wanted to check but I certainly won't be sharing here  and don't be so rude!! 
I joined this forum  to seek help and advise not to be made to feel like a rogue landlord maybe consider that to others that need advise.

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 10:08:23 PM
my insurance becomes invalid if I don't get an invoice for the works done in my building.

It would be interesting to see the exact clauses in your policy that require this.

Got a feeling that you may be over-interpreting the scope of what the insurance company requires and that this has led you to add over-restrictive clauses in your tenancy agreement.

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 10:08:23 PMI'm not a bad landlord at all...

But all bad Landlords would say this.

They also believe this, so there's nowhere for the conversation to go. But we can only go on what you chose to write... we cannot be blamed for joining the dots.

And, when accused, they'd likely react in the same way you just did too. QED.

Some Landlords only learn the hard way,

You have been given advice by well meaning people with experience; learn from it so you don't have to experience their pain.

As JPK has explained there does not need to be a specific law for this circumstance because there are enough to make you realise your responsibilities.  Checkout the parent site for plain language explanations of these:

https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/

The consumer is entitled to damages for Breach of Contract under existing Consumer Legislation,  you can't contract out of common law or it becomes an unfair contract term.  You can learn more about this at

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/unfair-contract-terms-cma37

A lot of the historic guidance of OFT356 shown on link will help you understand what is deemed fair and unfair in relation to Tenancy Agreements.

What you should be more worried about are the various incarnations of the Housing Act and the Landlord and Tenant Act, often enforced by Councils or other authorities who can fine you.  Before you start thinking of building in charges for the Tenant consider the Tenant Fees Act (2019)

Also there is a plethora of Case Law that County Courts must follow, so be mindful of that before you start any legal action.

Your Tenant chose to stay at her parents because your property was uninhabitable, I can bet you it would take me less than a minute to find a series of terms in your own contract that compel you to provide these basic services. If you did not provide a decent Tenancy Agreement then the .Gov model might help you understand.   

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/model-agreement-for-a-shorthold-assured-tenancy

If there were 5 days without a boiler then you are culpable for those 5 days whether she remains in the property or not.  The out of pocket expenses could be way more than the daily tenancy.

All of the problems you had were avoidable and the buck stops with you.

Heat, Power, Hot Water, Water supply, these are the most important.

I would LOVE to be in Court to see the face of the Judge when you say

"I need to add she has a kettle and the electric hob and oven in the property so she has access to hot water if she boils it."

HEADS UP this is not

"caring about my property and the tenant that's there to the best within my power efficiently and correctly."

A Landlord can take out a maintenance contract on their boiler with emergency cover that gets things fixed in hours not days and you can take out Landlords insurance too.

In your latest message you now allege that it is for insurance reasons, but her father repaired it for free, perhaps with a charge for parts, are you really going to claim for a £10 cistern part. What is the excess on this insurance?  I have had a cistern go in my own home, ordered one from Amazon and it was with me in 2 hours and it was on a Sunday.

If you think about how when a hate crime acts as a multiplier on other crimes, so it is with S11 failures they aggravate, even if you are not a Rogue Landlord it makes you look like one.

This is not a battle and it is never beneficial to be adversarial, Courts are "pay to play" venues, many cases can't be won because they are binary so you lose and when you lose you pay both sides costs.

Most importantly this person is going to be looking after what is likely your most valuable asset, treat them nice and just ask them to let you know if something needs fixing and when they do ask them if it is something their Dad could fix or would they like you to get your own contractor in. 

Their Dad can't service a Gas Boiler if he is not Gas Safe Registered, nor can anyone else.

Nobody is implying anything, they are not commenting about the condition of your property, they are simply responding to the information you provided.

You are a bit sensitive about being a BAD or ROGUE LANDLORD, but nobody has said you are either of these, they might have warned that you might be perceived as one by a Court or the Council if there are other issues.

People are surprised by your cavalier attitude to urgent things like boiler repair because they have probably been stung and instead of taking this advice you whine like a child. 

If you are doing your job properly it is YOU who should find the issues BEFORE the inventory happens.  Imagine a concierge is showing a guest to a hotel room and notices the bathroom has not been cleaned, they would usually move them to another room rather than leave you with the experience of someone's pubes being all over the place.  Those guests would be wondering what else was not done.

If you think that is why you have an inventory you are sorely mistaken, the inventory is done to allow both parties can agree the state of the property so that if there is any dispute at the end of the lease, when another inventory takes place, both parties are protected.  You should have thoroughly checked everything in the property way before the inventory.

You don't come over as a Rogue Landlord to me, but perhaps an entitled and a tad controlling, if you are going to be this anal in your dealing with the Tenant this is not going to be a pleasant experience for them and they are the ones who have quiet enjoyment of your asset. 

Your allowed to add anything you like to the Tenancy, whether it will be deemed as an unfair contract term or whether you have any chance of enforcing such a term is another matter, but hey, knock yourself out.

If you took advice and simply asked the Tenant to let you know immediately about any defect (something in 90% of Tenancy Agreements) then you could work with her to determine the best outcome. 

HINT

99.1    To inform the Landlord of any loss or damage to the Premises or Fixtures and Fittings, promptly upon the damage coming to the attention of the Tenant.

To provide the Landlord with details of any loss or damage, under clause 89.2 of Section 77 above, within a reasonable time of that loss or damage having come to the attention of the Tenant.

If her Dad hurts himself that is his liability, if you have been told about the imaginary shelf then you can inspect it during the next void, that way you are not saying the shelf was put up well. 

If he drills through a pipe he is liable and that is the way you might get some of the control you so desperately seek, you say "OK Karen but if your Dad damages wiring or a pipe you both will be liable, how about I get someone in who is insured with professional indemnity insurance".

Anyway, nobody suggested shelves and again I can't think of an agreement that does not have a clause preventing drilling holes and I have seen hundreds of Tenancy Agreements.  Many are template ones that quickly become out of date, some are hybrids that get merged but then have competing terms for the same thing so create ambiguity.  The funniest one was where a lovely witch of a Landlord removed all of the Landlord obligations, of course it was deemed as null an void in a heartbeat.

Again  for the boiler, NOBODY except a GasSafe qualified person should touch it, not you, not the Tenant, not your plumber if they are not on the Gas Safe register.  If a Tenant has her Dad perform any non user serviceable action then of course she and he are liable, it is a criminal offence!  Have a look at the sentencing guidelines

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Health-Safety-case-study-Individuals.pdf

I don't know if this is your only property but it sounds as if you lived there before (like so many do) and so of course you care passionately about the property, but you are not living there so you lose control.  I know Tenants that would be on your arse every day with minor ridiculous things.  The issue is simply one of communication; this is something you want to keep wide open so that a Tenant feels they can contact you without getting their head bitten off.

You can ensure she communicates effectively by giving her many channels, a WhatApp group is very common, I know some that use open source helpdesk software so that every issue is tracked and solved and they have evidence of it.

It is hilarious that you say NOT BEING CONTROLLING in capitals suggesting you want to control something here too, well don't worry because nobody is judging you, they are just trying to help you avoid the £5k penalty they got or the legal costs or the enforcement notice costs.

If you read the parent site you can see that the culture here does not fear speaking in plain language or telling it how it is.  If your sensitivities are such that you are "offended" or "outraged" that really is YOUR issue, suck it up and get a tougher skin.  People have given you advice based on their experience, but you seem reluctant to accept it and are over defensive.

Nobody knows who you are; maybe JIMJAM is an appropriate username if you get the jitters so easily, but the good news is you can reinvent yourself with a new username and nobody will ever know.

I don't think anyone was disrespectful to you, the truth is we are all nobodies in this Internet world and if you take your bat home because you are so upset then that is your loss.  I was going to say "oh please share we promise we will not be rude" but I could not keep a straight face.

BTW you joined this forum to seek advice, but you are not entitled to anything!  If you want to be entitled to something go pay for a service and the same legislation you want to ignore will give you the right to expect it to be carried out with reasonable care and skill.

You are welcome to come back and bitch about your Tenant the next time you need to let off steam.

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 10:08:23 PM
Okay thanks for all your replies just to close this thread down  I'm not a bad landlord at all...REPEAT AGAIN!!! my property is high spec and as I said in the beginning the minor issues were found on inspection with the tenant when going through the inventory together that's why you have one! and at the time these were to be fixed by myself ASAP but the dad fixed them the same day. I asked not to as its a Landlord responsibility to fix unless we give written consent then there are no problems all round if something major happens! that. Let me just add  this is in place in the contract as my insurance becomes invalid if I don't get an invoice for the works done in my building. I have followed legislation and I am allowed to add anything to to tenancy to protect this very insurance to be valid.
I really don't understand how you as landlords can allow a repair by a tenant you don't know yet! then something major happens in the property and you are responsible maybe a safety issue ... what if a shelf fell down and something hurt them at worse killed them or they tried to fix the boiler themselves... because it does happen so who do you think will be liable??? THE LANDLORD!!!
This scenario I am in is not to make me greedy it's about making sure all is safe and working in reasonable time if it's out of my control. Apologise goes without saying and paying the dad for his time is a definite.
I guess I'm a rogue landlord for caring about my property and the tenant that's there to the best within my power efficiently and correctly.
NOT BEING CONTROLLING as I'm being accused of.
I think some of you need to respect other Landlords here and be respectful with the way you help people on here there is  more  I wanted to check but I certainly won't be sharing here  and don't be so rude!! 
I joined this forum  to seek help and advise not to be made to feel like a rogue landlord maybe consider that to others that need advise.

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 03, 2023, 02:09:30 AM
I think  some of your replies are implying the property is in bad shape well it's only 8 years old and everything is in perfect condition. It's unfortunate the boiler and cystern has broken within 2 weeks of the tenant moving in. No landlord can fore see this and certainly not know the parts need to be ordered in so unforeseen delays.


The issue was never about not paying the dad for the works he kindly done it was the tenant didn't get written permission as I like to use my own tradesperson for my properties.

My question was

Is there a law that says the tenant is legally entitled to rent reduction


For choosing to stay at her parents as she couldn't wash her hair for 3 days... before the repair and the minor issues were to be addressed by my tradesperson having had  bad tenants ruin other properties I've learnt from this hence why written permission is needed.

I find it quite offensive that I've been made to feel like a rogue landlord with only minor repairs eg. Integrated washing machine door 2 mm out and needs adjusting when the property is high spec.

I do know that's it's best to have a good relationship with tenant and I have apologised from the start and the tenant understood that there may be delays but it was being fixed.

So if your boiler breaks down do you go and buy a new one every time so there is no delay?

Anyway I have not found these replies to be helpful as my question was not answered

FYI I have a tenancy agreement with everything you have kindly explained. That is law abiding with legislation at its heart but thank you for the reminder.
I like the fact you can't stop with personal vibes you don't know me you don't know the whole situation and I'm certainly glad I personally don't know you.
But thank you again from the entitled controlling Landlord JIMJAM with the jitters 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🥱🥱😴🤣🤣

Quote from: JIMJAM on August 30, 2023, 02:37:32 AM
Hi all sorry this is long winded but I do need your advice on this one!

Our tenant has been in 3 weeks now...

After reading quite a nasty email from the tenant...

Basically after reading the email as being held to ransom...

Please let us know how the relationship with the tenant gets rebuilt and how everything pans out. Really interested to learn from this one.

Quote from: JIMJAM on September 04, 2023, 07:53:49 PMFYI I have a tenancy agreement with everything you have kindly explained. That is law abiding with legislation at its heart but thank you for the reminder.

The single tenancy term that you have referred to, in which "it states that no one is allowed to fix anything other than our own tradesperson unless the tenant has written permission from the landlord" is probably not lawful, on the basis that it's both unfair and, potentially, unsafe - although I appreciate that comment may not be a detailed summary of the actual term.

The tenant should be allowed to perform basic maintenance tasks without involving anyone else as part of their quiet enjoyment of a property, they shouldn't need permission or a third party to fix a fuse, change a bulb of clean out a gutter.

I had an email 7.30 am yesterday.New tenant moved in night before.No hot water in basin or kitchen sink.Had to explain the concept of mixer taps.He is training to be a detective.I am praying that he has a helpful Dad,because I don't intend being his Mummy.

Quote from: heavykarma on September 05, 2023, 11:57:30 AM
I had an email 7.30 am yesterday.New tenant moved in night before.No hot water in basin or kitchen sink.Had to explain the concept of mixer taps.He is training to be a detective.I am praying that he has a helpful Dad,because I don't intend being his Mummy.

That's so funny!

Thank you

Really gives you faith in the boys in blue doesn't it? He will henceforth go by the nickname Sherlock in my mind.

Quote from: heavykarma on September 05, 2023, 02:00:55 PM
Really gives you faith in the boys in blue doesn't it? He will henceforth go by the nickname Sherlock in my mind.

Perhaps he's going to specialise in cold cases...

You do know that we women love a man who makes them laugh Simon x