UK Landlord Forum / Life

I am on the verge of becoming a Landlord for the first time. The house I currently  reside in has proven to be difficult to sell but I feel sure I can rent it out. I've been doing as much research as I possibly can and my attitude to making this a success is fluctuating between over confidence and mild panic. I have read the e book and a few of the other articles on the landlord blog/life which I have found both informative and entertaining (there is something wrong with me right ?). My question to the users of this forum is this. If you knew then (before you became a landlord) what you know now regarding all the pitfalls and the pro's and cons, would you have still gone ahead and took the plunge and became a landlord ??

Your text intrigues me. You seem to have no great desire to become a Landlord. You seem to be getting forced into it by circumstance. Saying something is proving difficult to sell is ambiguous. And most often rectifiable... as a last resort it can be achieved through price drops. Unless there's a mine shaft underneath it... but even then, maybe. It is not clear whether you intend to grow your Landlord position or just maintain what you've been lumbered with.

I'd probably advise you to do whatever is necessary to sell. There is a Landlord 'trap' and it involves letting out your previous home to strangers and never being able to fully detach yourself from it... your much-loved home is now home to someone else, but you are still involved, and this can cause issues... we've seen it many times before.

I'd do it again... I have a fair amount of capital, a good salary to back me up, all my properties are either fully owned or on repayment mortgages, I am playing the long game, by design... I am lazy and I enjoy living on the efforts of others. This does not mean it is for everyone by any stretch of the imagination. If your plan is bigger than just letting out your previous home because you can't sell it, best of luck... but if it's as simple as that, I'd seriously question it as a plan.

This does not mean you won't be in with the majority of Landlords by doing this, you will.

I would change agents, drop the price, spend a bit doing it up to make it sell, rather than think I can rent it out and somehow the maths and returns and percentages will work out just fine for me.

Thanks for the replies.
Firstly Hippogriff, You are correct in that I didn't plan on becoming a landlord as my initial intention was to sell. When I say my current residential home is proving difficult to sell I should have stated that I meant difficult to sell at a price I found acceptable. I could sell it tomorrow if I was desperate enough to accept the low ball offers that have come my way but I am not. We (the wife and I) were discussing our options and decided to test the water by asking a personal friend who is currently renting a property nearby if our house would be of interest. To say his response was positive would be an understatement. The rent to house value yield comes in at about 10% which I believe is decent. I understand the possible drawbacks of renting to a personal friend but we both trust this guy having known him for 15 years and the wife has known him even longer. He also earns a good salary and don't think the payment of rent on time will be an issue. As for falling into the landlord trap regarding renting out what was once our home I must say I am cold blooded enough to see it as bricks and mortar once we leave. The trust works both ways in that the proposed tenant has been in the house many times and he knows any maintenance issues will be dealt with quickly. You state that you would do it again so in answer to my post that makes it 1 - 0 in favour for those who would have gone ahead and become a Landlord if they knew then what they know now.

And Boboff. Thank you also for replying. Thanks for the advice regarding changing agents etc. and trying to sell but I guess my mind is pretty much made up. The opening post in this thread was more nosey curiosity than a request for advice. Though no doubt in the coming weeks and months I will be asking for plenty of your wisdom. Am I correct in guessing you do not regret becoming a Landlord (Or should that be Landlady ?). Does that make it 2 - 0 in favour of those who would have still taking this route having experienced it ?

Renting to a friend, ey? Landlord 101 broken straight off the bat. I sense you won't listen to this, but don't do it...

Haha. Thanks Hippo. I sort of guessed you or someone else would come back with that advice. I get it. You are right. I am not listening.

Haha. Let's hope it doesn't go wrong. Haha. You seem to be an expert. Haha. So I'm sure it'll be fine. Haha.

  Not an expert. A novice. I do appreciate your advice. I might not always follow it. Thanks again.

Do not let to friends

Do not let out to someone who you wouldn't take pleasure taking to court to get money for damages or to get your property back.

Do not let to friends

Do not let to people to 'do them a favour'

Do not let to friends

Do not let to people who are in a bad situation that you feel would be nice to sort it out for them by giving them an asset.

Do not let to friends

I was going to say treat it like a business but that's wrong, it is a business.  It's a business.  Act business like.  Get the best customer you can, protect your asset.  Do not let to friends.

Thanks for that Riptide. Seems to be a pattern emerging here. I promise to let you all know if it goes tits up.

That is so funny.

You put "if" it goes tits up.

There is no if, it WILL go tits up.

But I at least admire your arrogance, its a quality often over looked in us.

Sorry but I am not being arrogant.  I have all the facts of the situation. You do not. To say that it will definately go tits up when you are not in possession  of all the facts as if you know for sure ? Well how arrogant can you get ?

Hello, I came on this forum looking for somthing else and saw your post and could not help but reply.

As per above, it is not a good idea to let a property to "friends". Not only does it make it a very personal business relationship. But if things do go wrong, for whatever reason, it can also ruin the relationship.

Having said that.....if you do decide to let to friends; to mitigate the change of things going wrong, please ensure you do everything by the book.

You must ensure you have a bullet proof tenancy agreement, ideally with photos of the condition of the property before hand which they then sign. You must use a tenancy deposit scheme. Ensure all your boilers have the relvant saftey checks carried out and so on....

It may be advisable to use an agent to do the initial set up for you (paying them a small fee). You could even let the agency manage it for you initially so things are at arms length. If there is an issue your friend rings them rather than you.

It may sound all a bit too much effort if it is a friend and you know them. But that is exactly the point and why so many things go wrong with letting to people you know well, even family. People take the handshake route and informal agreements or a basic email spelling out the length of the agreed tenancy. This is never enough and you could be causing a lot of trouble for yourself later down the line.

So, as I said, you must still do things by the book.

No matter if your friend says "don't worry about this or that...the condition is fine....etc."

Treat them as if you do not know them and as you would treat any other prospective tennant.

Good Luck!

Quote from: jameds on September 01, 2015, 07:18:38 PM☺ Not an expert. A novice. I do appreciate your advice. I might not always follow it. Thanks again.

No worries. We don't want it to go wrong for you - but we've seen this story so many times before. A Landlord / Tenant relationship is not equivalent to a friend or family relationship and it puts different pressures on both sides. It can be unpredictable. When we say "it's Landlord 101" we do mean that!

The thing here is that if it goes wrong, even in any small way, then your friendship could be ruined - irretrievably, forever. When there are, axiomatically, plenty of other properties out there that your friend can rent we always wonder why people do this. It offers no real benefits to either side of the equation.

Eavedropper's post should be read. The thing I suspect happens is that at the beginning both sides are very relaxed... nothing is too much trouble for the Landlord to fix straight away, and everything is too small for the Tenant to raise an issue... maybe... but over time, maybe again, the Landlord starts to feel that they should be getting more rent for their wonderful house and the Tenant starts to resent paying so much money to their friend, when their friend is going on nice holidays and still hasn't fitted that draught-excluder brush thing to the front door, which is costing them more money to heat the property...

...it grows.

In time, the relationship is less amicable and downright hostile... there are accusations and threats... eventually they leave and you never speak again. The ex-friend badmouths you to all the mutual friends you had... they tell stories about you that aren't true and people think you're really nasty for kicking someone when they're down and needed to rent from you... even if for matey-ratey.

Firstly, thanks Eavesdropper for what I think is a very reasonable post with good advice. I certainly intend to play everything by 'the book'. With regards to tenancy agreements, gas safety certificates and even this legionnaires disease risk assessment I intend to have it all in order. I definitely intend to treat the tenant as exactly that and to deal with everything that occurs in a professional manner. One of the reasons I think I can make this work is as follows. I am a virgin landlord as it where. My cousin however has let out a couple of properties and one of his tenants is the person who I am going to rent to. They were friends before and 2 years later my cousin decided to sell. This was always my cousins intention and he let the friend no from the start. They remain friends to this day and when I asked my cousin what the person was like as a tenant he said if he ever had a property to rent again he would have no hesitation in letting to the same person again.
Onto Hippogriff and thanks very much for your replies. I understand that you don't want it to go wrong. I get it that you have seen it all before and I appreciate the warnings. I am not arrogant enough to think I am infallible and this is the reason I joined the forum so I could garner invaluable advice from people with the experience that I lack. Thanks again.
Finally to Boboff. I may have been a little precious earler when responding to your comment about my arrogance. I am sure it didn't bother you in the slightest but I apologise anyway. Arrogant ? Me ? Not guilty. Precious ? Childish ? A little touchy ? Yep I guess I can be all of those things.

What would I do if I was starting out?

Not go onto an internet forum with experienced landlords.  Ask what they wouldn't do and then do the opposite calling them suckers and find it funny that they'll be laughing on the other side of their faces when they are prove wrong (or not).  Just seems plain dumb to ask for advice and then do the complete opposite as you have 'all the facts'

Fair point, but jameds has taken the ribbing with good nature.

The point I keep going back to is this... there's no advantage to either Landlord or Tenant in them being friends, there's plenty of other Tenants the Landlord can choose from, there's plenty of other properties the Tenant can choose... so don't do it, as there are only potentially disadvantages. If you have a decision in front of you with no pros and some cons... why elect the cons option?

Third in the three line whip.

James, quite, I dont mind your post, and appreciate, that on reflection, you came and supported your point.

It's your life, but again on reflection I ask you to consider this.

Would you sell a 10 year old second hand car  to a friend. You can put all the family anecdotes of where you have seen this work before as defense, but I think you will have an innate understanding through years of experience and hearing others issues, that this is fundamentally a bad idea, and you wouldn't do it. We have that same understanding of property, can you therefore understand that it is not arrogance, just, for us, complete common sense?

The OP did not originally ask about whether it was a good idea to let to a friend, that just came out of the mix. It is quite possible he is so far down the track now, he feels it would be too embarrassing to take a different direction... it might even risk the friendship at this juncture. However, I know what I would do, I really do... I'd be explaining to my friend that every single Landlord who I've taken advice from has stated not to let to friends and, being new to this, I feel it is advice I should follow.

A Landlord should not be a friend and a friend should not be your Landlord.

Thanks for the recent replies I will deal with them in order.
Firstly Riptide. I fear you have badly misjudged my attitude to the people (including yourself) who have taken the time to reply to my posts with advice. I most definitely have not come onto this forum and done the complete opposite of all the advice given. The first thread I started was to say Hi and make a small inquiry regarding income tax. Two or three people responded and I took the advice on board and thanked them. In this thread I have taken on board snippets such as the advice from eavesdropper regarding a bullet proof tenancy agreement with suggestion of photographs which I now intend to act upon. The suggestion that I have called anyone a sucker and sniggered about them being proved wrong is ludicrous. Whether I make a complete ass of the whole business or having a roaring success will not affect any of you good people. What I did say was haha  i'm not listening rather like a school kid trying not to hear worrying news. Thanks anyway.
Boboff I understand the comparison of the 10 year old car and I get that you are trying to warn me before I make a bad decision.
Hippogriff has probably hit the nail on the head with his two most recent posts. In the first he mentions pros and cons. Well when I agreed to rent out to a friend I hadn't yet joined this forum. The pros appeared to outweigh the cons. I decided that I would prefer a tenant that I knew had been a very good tenant to my cousin living in my house than a stranger who may or may not be good for the rent and who may or may not trash the place. It seemed a no brainer. Obviously alarm bells have rang out since joining the forum. However, as suggested by Hippo, the friend gave his current landlord 2 months notice 5 weeks ago and I believe the Landlord has agreed a new tenant. I think I would indeed be risking the friendship if I was to withdraw from the situation now. Also it wouldn't be true to say every single landlord is advising against the move because my cousin, the one who has had this friend as a tenant insists he is the exception that proves the rule. Its fair to say that if I had found this forum earlier I would probably gone a different route.
Wish me luck guys and Riptide ease off on the mild hostility. Thanks to you all.

Good luck..

Riptide... Hostile.... I won't hear a word..

Quote from: boboff on September 05, 2015, 10:18:07 AM
Good luck..

Riptide... Hostile.... I won't hear a word..

Cheers.

Probably just me being a tad sensitive.

Jameds
Oh please please post again in 18 months time....do let us all know how it goes 

If you are so far down the track of renting to a friend (irretreivably so)...then consider (as other have indicated)....

1. Put an agent between you and your buddy to the extent possible
2. Do EVERYTHING by the book e.g. EPC, Gas certs, DPS, back up verbal comms by Notices under the Agreement etc

Try to think 1 year ahead...are you going to be OK to ask this chap for a rent increase?
If he loses his job (and cannot pay the rent) will you be OK to evict him?

If you value your friendship then you have to think this through...

(if he owes you any favours I'd make sure you claim them soon... )

Im sure there are lots of sageful quotes about doing business with friends but I guess that would have only helped you a few months ago

All the best of luck.

Post in 18 months ? I'll do better than that. I intend to post every time l hit a problem. Firstly because I may be given good advice from experienced Landlords. Secondly for the comedy value I feel it will give you lot. I've got a thick skin and can laugh at myself so if I f*!k up I will tell you. I may get the odd " I told you so" or a slightly more sympathetic "we did try to warn you" Or maybe even  be called a Jammy ( insert your own expletive) because I have somehow through good luck made it work. I can take a good ribbing so bring it on.
Also thanks very much for the solid advice. I appreciate it.

hi guys wonder if someone can advise.

ive had a tenant for nearly five  years. we gave the tenant our property in pristine condition. over the years the property has deteriorated and neglected to such an extent that the inside of the house has turned filthy, damaged and the garden into amazon jungle.

the tenant is a single mum and it has been very difficult asking her to let me in the property. as she would give me times when im at work as she knew what i do or would ignore my calls and texts. over the years shes only allowed me in on no more than 5 occasions. in the last 5 months she has fallen into arrears with the rent and when i finally text her to pay up or face eviction she took me to the council for health and safety.

i never signed a tenancy agreement with her as she was friend then and never took any deposit of her.

the council has been in touch with me and have informed me that they will be writing me a letter.

Please advise.

Section 21.

Please be careful of advice received from websites (including my own) and always do your own research.
Obviously I cannot understand your full situation from a small blog....

Hippo is right (as usual) but there is a bit more to say...

Firstly your post reinforces to me the concept that all tenants are not to be trusted (ever).
But more importantly please please do not wait for the council letter (trust the council less than the tenants)

I maybe being super paranoid here but...

The Deregulation Act comes into force in October (soon!)
The public outcry was against so called revenge evictions (landlords evicting when tenants asked for small maintenance to be carried out) that at least in part was responsible for some of the Act.
It sounds to me that the tenant and the council could stitch you up a like kipper.....and you won't get the letter from the council until October or close enough to October to limit your time to do much.

If you serve notices after the Act comes into force then arguably (they will claim) you should have maintained the property etc etc and are now trying to evict the bitch sorry tenant because she has asked you to maintain the property. 

I assume you have not kept a detailed record of your attempts to enter the property? Nor has an agent been involved who might collaborate your story?

Perhaps this isn't the case and a sane judge will evict on the basis of non payment of rent which is the correct thing to do but I've seen and heard of judges just not getting it...especially with new legislation... (Deposit protection being a case in point)

I don't mean to scaremonger but you could be in a whole world of pain on this one if you don't act.

Act now....you are already 4 months too late if she is 5 months late in rent payment.

I've read the Act and it isn't crystal clear that a Section 21 notice served at the start of a tenancy that began before the Act is still valid post the enforcement of the Act as the Act itself changes the timing of when a Section 21 can be served.  So assuming you have already validly served Section 21 within the first four months of the tenancy starting (did you?) the judge can pretty much interpret it as invalid after October.....DAFT and he should not but I've seen similar before.

  If you haven't yet served a section 21 then do it ASAP!!!

The lack of an agreement is not going to help either...in theory it shouldn't matter but anything that moves you away from bog standard has the potential for a judge to go random on you...

Best of luck

I'll say more, then... Section 21, today, do not delay. Do not wait for the Council to do anything, it will not be in your best interests. Evict the Tenant without a second-thought and start again. Do it all properly and correctly. I want this to come across unequivocally... I hope it does.

There is no deposit, the property is in a state... get ready for a big bill or an attempt to reclaim the monies from this Tenant who already owes you rent.

Lesson for Jameds and Mohammed.
We let a house to a friend who stopped paying rent and preferred to go to the pub.
Section 21 and County Court for the arrears ensued.
Good news is we won at County Court..
Not so good news is he's paying us £5 per month.
Good news is the local pub hasn't shut.