UK Landlord Forum / Life

I am the tenant - AST started in 2016, initially 6 months now periodic. 
I previously lived abroad for 12 years and returned to England in 2016 due to the time I spent living outside the UK I had no credit rating. Understandably I found it hard to rent a flat that wasn't a complete hole, the flat I'm renting now is a level above being a hole but not great. 

Without going into the nitty gritty the landlord has always been negligent and has always refused to fix faults/replace items instead insisting I had to foot the bill. Most of these I could live without and some I repaired myself, it wasn't ideal but whilst I rebuilt my credit rating I went along with it. 
However a few months ago a window became a new issue and the landlord refused to repair it, they wanted me to pay for it as usual. I have an okay credit rating now so decided it was time to find somewhere actually liveable. I thought I would play the landlord at their own game, I reported them to the council for the window and subsequent mould it has caused and other minor things that the landlord had failed to fix/repair. Environmental health issued the landlord with a notice, landlord then came to the flat unannounced with all guns blazing. I told them I was looking for elsewhere to live, still the next day I saw them put something through the door, an S21. 
The S21 is invalid for numerous reasons; no how to rent book, no smoke detectors, various issues reported to landlord that were never dealt with, council issued landlord improvement notice before S21 was served and the deposit was never protected.

The tenancy agreement said the deposit is with the DPS but I called them today and it was never actually deposited. I am following the Shelter website for advice on this, do I send the letter before action whilst I'm still living in the property or wait until I leave? Is this even the right thing to do? 
Do I need to acknowledge the S21? The landlord keeps trying to contact me, they've also knocked on the front door (I ignored). Do I have to tell them its invalid? By acknowledging it am I saying it is valid? My credit score isn't amazing but it is okay now, I am actively looking for somewhere new to live but want to wait and find at least a semi decent not the only hole that's available to me again. Anything else I should be aware of?

Quote from: LEM on February 27, 2019, 09:18:59 PM
no smoke detectors

Not relevant to s21 validity.

Quote from: LEM on February 27, 2019, 09:18:59 PMdo I send the letter before action whilst I'm still living in the property or wait until I leave? Is this even the right thing to do?

Entirely up to you. Yes.

Quote from: LEM on February 27, 2019, 09:18:59 PM
Do I need to acknowledge the S21? ... Do I have to tell them its invalid? By acknowledging it am I saying it is valid? ... Anything else I should be aware of?

No. No. No.

Notice even if valid does not end tenancy. If landlord want possession, either with your agreement or go to court. Make sure you know how you're going to serve a valid notice to quit for the time when you choose to end the tenancy. Yes, serve your own notice when you want to leave despite the landlord's s21.

Just out of general curiosity why aren't the smoke detectors relevant? I read a few websites that said if a tenancy started after 10/2015 and the property does not have smoke detectors it would make the S21 invalid. Obviously I understand the notice from environmental health and not protecting the deposit are bigger issues. 

If I send a letter before action whilst I'm still a tenant is the landlord likely to put the deposit in the DPS? Landlord actually charged me an illegal deposit (3 months rent, £5.1k) and has started texting me saying they know I am keeping a dog in the property. I do not own a dog. Plus the flat is in general very worn, other than a lick of paint they haven't renovated the flat since they bought it in the 90s. I have a niggling feeling they will try to retain some if not all the deposit. If I send the letter before action once I've left would this negate them being able to do this?

If I see my landlord shall I just tell them I was already looking for somewhere else to live, I'll send them notice and contact them to arrange handing back the keys? I don't have to acknowledge the S21?

The Landlord putting the Deposit into a Deposit Protection Scheme now doesn't remove their failing, not at all... in fact it highlights it rather impressively. And they'd still be liable for the penalty, and you'd have extra evidence (apart from nothing / no paper trail, I mean) that they failed to protect the Deposit correctly.

Can you highlight what you mean about an illegal Deposit? You seem to have read-up quite well, but there are a few gaps in your knowledge, or a few incorrect assumptions. For a good example, I think... you talk about needing to acknowledge the Section 21, otherwise it becoming valid (by default one presumes)... but the advice (although it's all a little bit of continual frustration for an incompetent Landlord) is that you keep quiet and the process might go something like this...

• Landlord serves you an invalid Section 21 (hoping that you'll not notice or that you'll just depart on the date specified).
• You're aware of Section 21s and the fact the date is not the date you must be out by - it's the date the Landlord can commence proceedings against you for eviction
• That date passes, and you're still there, the Landlord has no other choice than to go down the legal route, booking Court time etc..
• Eventually (whenever that might be) the case comes to Court and it is thrown-out (for whatever reasons the Section 21 might be invalid - you take your pick it seems).
• The Landlord starts all over again.

Eventually, of course, even the most idiotic Landlord will get it right... but as a Tenant who may, or may not, want to move... you don't highlight their procedural mistakes to them.

Actually, you just sit back and chuckle... maybe you even tent your fingers?

When you decide to move on, ensure you serve the correct notice yourself... and ensure you don't need to go back on it. I suspect your Landlord will be glad to see you go (no attack on you from me) and then you can bring the Deposit non-protection case... start with a LBA and you can find templates for this all over the Internet, Shelter's website has a good one... although an email might work just as well at the outset to see what the response is.

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 07:54:02 AMPlus the flat is in general very worn, other than a lick of paint they haven't renovated the flat since they bought it in the 90s.

None of this is relevant. Clear your mind.

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 07:54:02 AMJust out of general curiosity why aren't the smoke detectors relevant? I read a few websites that said if a tenancy started after 10/2015 and the property does not have smoke detectors it would make the S21 invalid.

The only penalty for non-compliance of the Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015 is a penalty charge of up to £5,000 payable to the local housing authority.

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 07:54:02 AMLandlord actually charged me an illegal deposit (3 months rent, £5.1k)

There's no maximum amount for deposit, at least not until the Tenant Fees Act 2019 come into force (expected 1 June this year).

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 07:54:02 AMIf I send the letter before action once I've left would this negate them being able to do this?

The only legal effect of a LBA is that it allows you to go to court without attracting negative cost consequences from not following the pre-action protocol. It's basically a letter that says "I have this claim against you, do you want to settle so we don't have to go to court?".

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 07:54:02 AMI don't have to acknowledge the S21?

No.

To be honest I didn't know what an S21 was when I received it, I spent a few hours Googling it as I wanted to know where I stood legally and to make sure bailiffs weren't going to turn up at my door.
By illegal deposit I had read online the maximum deposit a landlord could ask for is 6 weeks rent opposed to the 3 months rent my landlord asked of me. But I also know that not everything you read on the internet is true and that is why I came here to ask for advice. I now realise I was misinformed about the deposit and smoke detectors.

And yes that was the sort of scenario I was thinking. I didn't know if I legally had to acknowledge the S21 by confirming its receipt to the landlord and by law I had to inform the landlord it was invalid at the time it was received. Being honest I don't think I will need extra time. My landlord is the kind of person who is always right, if you show them something black they will say it is red and won't believe any different. I really didn't want to have an argument with them about the S21 being valid/invalid.

And it does seem rude to say the flat is worn out of context. This is where my intentions were coming from, I've already said the landlord has been negligent since I started the tenancy but I didn't feel these instances are directly related to the S21.
When I started the tenancy (2016) a radiator wasn't working and the seal around the shower unit was already rotten and leaked during first use. Landlord said these were issues I was responsible for, I changed the seal but radiator remains broken.
The fridge broke in 2017. My tenancy agreement states the flat is unfurnished but with white goods, landlord said it only applied to those exact white goods that were already in the flat and didn't extend to replacements. Tenancy agreement said nothing about that. Regardless I bought a new fridge. Before I did the landlord did come to see if they could fix the old fridge (they couldn't) but suggested the kitchen was tired and I should replace the cabinets and appliances. They even showed me the type of kitchen they wanted on their phone. I said I was willing to paint the cabinets and nothing more, landlord said no they wanted them replacing - I never did. Landlord did ask if I had fixed the radiator mentioned above during this visit.
In 2018 wasps started living in the masonry, they managed to get in the flat and I would come home to at least ten of them on a daily basis. Landlord came over to look, made up some excuse and refused to pay for their removal. Whilst landlord was here they mentioned I hadn't renovated the kitchen and the fridge I brought was too small. Also suggested I replaced the carpet on the stairs which I haven't done but I did pay to have the wasps removed.
Later in 2018 the landlord put some of their personal items in the garage, I wasn't warned about this or asked permission, my tenancy agreement states I rent the garage too. I had put the old broken fridge that belongs to the landlord in the garage which they saw and asked me to remove it. They then asked me if I had renovated the kitchen again. (I fully intend to put the broken fridge back in the flat when I leave. If my new flat already has a fridge I would rather donate the one I bought to charity then let the landlord have it.)
There's also been some other minor issues I've fixed myself without even notifying the landlord of but these are the instances where the landlord has suggested I renovate their flat for free.

Quote from: LEM on February 28, 2019, 04:03:54 PMAnd it does seem rude to say the flat is worn out of context. This is where my intentions were coming from, I've already said the landlord has been negligent since I started the tenancy but I didn't feel these instances are directly related to the S21.
When I started the tenancy (2016) a radiator wasn't working and the seal around the shower unit was already rotten and leaked during first use. Landlord said these were issues I was responsible for, I changed the seal but radiator remains broken.
The fridge broke in 2017. My tenancy agreement states the flat is unfurnished but with white goods, landlord said it only applied to those exact white goods that were already in the flat and didn't extend to replacements. Tenancy agreement said nothing about that. Regardless I bought a new fridge. Before I did the landlord did come to see if they could fix the old fridge (they couldn't) but suggested the kitchen was tired and I should replace the cabinets and appliances. They even showed me the type of kitchen they wanted on their phone. I said I was willing to paint the cabinets and nothing more, landlord said no they wanted them replacing - I never did. Landlord did ask if I had fixed the radiator mentioned above during this visit.
In 2018 wasps started living in the masonry, they managed to get in the flat and I would come home to at least ten of them on a daily basis. Landlord came over to look, made up some excuse and refused to pay for their removal. Whilst landlord was here they mentioned I hadn't renovated the kitchen and the fridge I brought was too small. Also suggested I replaced the carpet on the stairs which I haven't done but I did pay to have the wasps removed.
Later in 2018 the landlord put some of their personal items in the garage, I wasn't warned about this or asked permission, my tenancy agreement states I rent the garage too. I had put the old broken fridge that belongs to the landlord in the garage which they saw and asked me to remove it. They then asked me if I had renovated the kitchen again. (I fully intend to put the broken fridge back in the flat when I leave. If my new flat already has a fridge I would rather donate the one I bought to charity then let the landlord have it.)
There's also been some other minor issues I've fixed myself without even notifying the landlord of but these are the instances where the landlord has suggested I renovate their flat for free.

Sigh. You keep banging-on about the the same stuff that you're concerned about... but we've already told you none of this is pertinent to your situation (just how you feel). Keep making your long lists of grievances, though, if it makes you feel better... we're not interested in your fridge, or what you intend (or would prefer) to do with it. We're really not. And no-one else is. What you need to focus on is the Section 21 and your situation, plus the Deposit (which could be lucrative) - not this surrounding noise.

Effectively... and this is your take-away... your long list of things you've done and accepted you're responsible for just means you've been taken advantage of and you have been mugged-off. Now... I'll try again... focus on getting a new place (on your terms, not on the terms of the invalid Section 21) and start to make plans for the Deposit angle... that should make all of these little things fade into insignificance, right? Perspective!

In hindsight that did turn into me venting. The landlord knows they are a last chance resort and use it to their advantage. They own a few properties and have made discriminatory remarks about one of their disabled tenants to me. This and the negligence is why I reported the landlord to the council, they need to me on their radar. Not that you are interested anyway!

I've actually had a tenancy confirmed this morning, just waiting to confirm the move in date so I can send my notice to current landlord. Thank you for your help. I'll send the LBA from the Shelter website when I have left and if I encounter difficulties I guess I will end up back here.

It's not that I'm (we're) not interested... it that's it's not pertinent to your situation... it's the difference between how you feel about something and what you need to be doing. As long as you have a good solid address for the Landlord then you can send your letter asking about the Deposit any time up to 6 years after it was supposed to have been taken. So I would leave, get settled-in, then sit down and write your letter.

In the meantime, see what action your Landlord tries to take regarding Deposit deductions... it will indeed be very interesting... and very pertinent. It goes like this - you'd think - the Check-Out meeting happens... you are present and either the Landlord or their Agent is present... you either agree something there and then or the Landlord will get in touch later. If the Landlord suggests that your large Deposit is due them... you politely demur and say "no, I want it back"... and then there'll be a point where you say "I will go through the Alternative Dispute Resolution process with the Deposit Protection Scheme my Deposit is registered with then... can you provide me with all the details to progress that, please?"

That's when the Landlord (we assume) gets their comeuppance... enjoy it if that's how it plays out. There might be some swallowing and back-pedalling. If your Deposit wasn't protected you, basically, are holding their scrotum in the palm of your hands (nice image, right?).

The bigger the Deposit the better the situation for you... I hope you have a nice paper trail for the payment.

Good luck, and don't fret about us being terse... we just want you to focus on what matters... not a frikkin' fridge situation.

Was there a good quality (nice detailed pictures, dated, signed etc.) Inventory and Schedule of Condition as part of your tenancy at the very beginning?

If not, you could simply dispute any deduction from the Deposit the Landlord might be brave enough to request... based on "it was like that when the tenancy started - prove it wasn't"... it will work. The onus of proof is on the Landlord, not you... without a proper Inventory they're very effectively screwed... the Deposit money is your money - unless the Landlord can effectively prove deductions are due (or agree them with you).

This feels like it should be on the telly... I've got an idea for a programme.