UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi, first time on here so i'm hoping someone can help. My previous landlord has witheld some of my deposit and i dispute it strongly. I have tried to arrange to meet the landlord and have sent 2 letters direct to the landlord to either meet me at the property or at least explain to me why they are holding this money. They have rejected each offer and asked the estate agent to inform me i was not to contact them again. They claim it is because the garden was not left in a comparable condition which i find amazing. I have photographic evidence of the house prior to my moving out. The landlord had sold the house whilst i was a tenant and even the pictures for the sale show the garden in a lovely condition. I have now lost patience and have decided to take the landlord to small claims court. I was advised to ask the estate agent for the 6 monthly inspection report and the final inspection report (we were there a total of 8 months). The estate agent has told me they didnt have to give me those reports because 'due to privacy of contract we are not obliged to provide you with a copy of either of these documents'.

Can someone tell me if this is true? All i want to see are the reports to take to court as evidence against the landlord that the property was in good order and infact was a lot better than when we took the property over. It's also worth pointing out that whent he property was sold and we were issued our section 21a i asked the estate agent which deposit scheme my deposit was held in as i felt i may have some problems with my deposit as the landlord had proved problematic. They informed me they had forgotten to deposit my money in a scheme and would do it straight away. That was 7 months after i moved in !! If i hadnt raised the issue it would never have been secured in a scheme.  I have also asked for a copy of the inventory we had when first moved in as we were sent it and we pen ammended it and added several points. We never got another one sent back with teh ammedments added and unfortunately i dont have a copy. They are refusing to send us this as they said we had a copy at the start which i highlighted we ammended and sent back so to me this was a draft inventory until it was typed up and signed by both parties.

I've been on both sides of the fence with renting. I've been a landlord and a tenant. I maybe should just let all this go but i cannot bear the thought that the landlord and the estate agents are just being greedy and hence why i have decided to take the landlord to small claims court. The landlord broke the law by not ensuring my money was placed in a scheme and that is black and white. But to then try and keep some of my deposit for a totally made up reason really does anger me.

Any advice greatly appreciated
Tommy

If the landlord did not protect your deposit (within 30 days of the commencement of the tennancy agreement) he is liable for between 1x and 3x the deposit.  I therefore think you have a strong negotiating position to come out with your deposit in full.  If you can make your landlord hear you and you mention this, I think he might sit up and take notice and you can then negotiate an out of court settlement, otherwise  speak to a solicitor.

Thanks Martha, the landlord knows full well about the situation with the deposit and pleads ignorance and obvioulsy blames the estate agents which indeed may be true. But i have been advised by a solicitor that it is the landlord who is ultimately responsible for the deposit so if the issue is with the estate agent then the landlord needs to deal with that seperately. But the landlord is so greedy and the estate agents were so useless and have said to me that even though it wasnt held in a scheme it was by the time i vacated the property so i have no case against anyone !! In the landlord statement they said they were new to renting and were getting over the death of their mother at the time i handed over the deposit so that is the excuse given. But i have tried my hardest to settle this and meet at the property with them to discuss and for them to point out what part of the garden they feel is not in good order. I but also requested to be there when the estate agenet did the final inspection but they would not accept that either as i anticipated problems.

I cant believe i'm having to go through all of this but i feel so strongly that they are just being greedy and also acting as a bit of a bully and i simply will not give in to these tactics. We were good tenants, looked after the place and improved it and probably added value to it when it came time to sell the property. That was not an issue to me until they decided they wanted to keep some of my deposit.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 15, 2014, 05:00:30 PMThanks Martha, the landlord knows full well about the situation with the deposit and pleads ignorance and obvioulsy blames the estate agents which indeed may be true.

This is irrelevant.

I'd forget about Court just at the moment.

Read through this link and then use the template to send a Letter Before Action to the Landlord. Send two copies from two different Post Offices and get a free proof of posting.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/tenancy_deposits/getting_your_deposit_back/court_action_to_get_a_tenancy_deposit_returned

You will be able to download a file called E._Request_for_a_deposit_to_be_refunded_after_a_landlords_failure_to_protect.rtf and you can edit this to suit your needs.

Your Landlord needs to be made acutely aware that a) they have broken the law and are liable for a penalty and b) there is no excuse - there is no-one else to blame and ignorance or personal circumstances will not save them from the Court making a decision in your favour... at which point you will get your deposit back plus 1x to 3x the deposit.

Strongly urge the Landlord to settle with you... if you are happy with just your deposit being returned then good on you. I would be, and it will prove a point to yet another inadequate Landlord.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 15, 2014, 05:00:30 PMBut i have been advised by a solicitor that it is the landlord who is ultimately responsible for the deposit so if the issue is with the estate agent then the landlord needs to deal with that seperately.

Correct. You don't need to employ a Solicitor to take this forward.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 15, 2014, 05:00:30 PMBut the landlord is so greedy and the estate agents were so useless and have said to me that even though it wasnt held in a scheme it was by the time i vacated the property so i have no case against anyone !! In the landlord statement they said they were new to renting and were getting over the death of their mother at the time i handed over the deposit so that is the excuse given. But i have tried my hardest to settle this and meet at the property with them to discuss and for them to point out what part of the garden they feel is not in good order. I but also requested to be there when the estate agenet did the final inspection but they would not accept that either as i anticipated problems.

All this stuff is just noise, don't let it distract you from what needs to be done.

By not protecting your deposit at all, this Landlord would have effectively allowed themselves to steal your money with a unilateral decision because - if it had been protected and they wanted to make deductions you didn't agree with you could have used the deposit scheme's Alternative Dispute Resolution process so a third party could decide what was appropriate... by not protecting your deposit the Landlord has closed this course of action off to you and they deserve everything they get.

Don't let anyone fob you off by telling you that you have no case... if what you've told us is true, you do. The fact that it was placed into a deposit scheme late is still no good for them. However... the key question I have... if your deposit was placed into a scheme, then you should be able to find that information out and use the ADR process - the Landlord can't just take the money without your agreement?

Was it or was it not in a scheme and some time and, if it was, were you made aware of this? The Landlord isn't supposed to be just able to take it as they desire - deductions have to be agreed. This is the whole point.

Thanks Hippogriff that's all good information but they are steps i have been through before. I've sent the letter before action direct to the landlord and got a response back from the estate agents telling me the landlord has asked i do not contact them direct again. So i've lost all patience now and turned down the ADR resolution in favour of going to small claims court and settling this issue and adding on the the non-payment of my deposit into a scheme and proof of this within the 30 days. I have absolutely no doubt if i hadnt raised this at the end of the tenency it would never hav been paid into a scheme.
The first problem with the landlord was when i was served my section 21a. I knew they were selling and i made the house available for viewings no problem even when i was away on holiday. The house was kept very tidy for all viewings and that first weekend saw 7 viewings and was apparently sold that weekend. However i was issued my section 21a at 5pm on the 30th of the month when the agent appeared at my front door and handed us  a letter and so holding me to 2 months notice as per the rental agreement (my notice period is 1 month but only starting on the rental due date so i had to wait another month) . I didnt need 2 months as i intended to move as soon as i found somewhere else so i offered a months notice from the following weekend and i would of course pay the additional weeks rent. I felt the timing of the issue of the 21a was deliberate to get as much money off me as possible. They would not accept my offer and kept quoting the rental agreement.
Our daughter is a very timid 5yr old who suffers quite badly with nerves. She is sick most days before school and the one thing we need with her is routine so i needed to get settled way before the summer holiday was finished and she returned to school. I mentioned this but still had no joy. So i felt shafted but what could i do. At that point i enquired about the deposit and asked for a ref number and that's when the estate agent admitted it had never been deposited in a scheme. I told them the section 21a was now invalid but i did not want to hold up the potential buyers as this would not be fair on them. As the rental agreemnt had been broken by them i again asked to be released early but i would still serve a months notice. STill the landlord would not agree and wanted me to pay the full 2 months rent. Finally after much backwards and forwards they agreed to let me go early but they wanted to keep a slice of my deposit for a ridiculous reason. So at that point i'd had enough and decided to go down the court route.
It has been an absolute nightmare from start to finish and such a waste of time. We were good tenants, always paid on time and looked after the house. But this landlord is just so greedy.
What about my original question about wanting to see the inventory, 6 month inspection and final inspection report. Are these really protected by Privacy of contract and i'm not able to see them?

Hippogriff, didnt answer your final question. The deposit was finally paid into a scheme and i was provided wtih a reference number. But this was 7 months after i moved in and less than a month before i left the property. And it was only placed in a scheme because after i was served the 21a i asked them for a reference number so i could check on-line. It was also at this  point i realised i had never received any prescribed information and was now seriously worried about my deposit. That's when i learned more about this subject than i had ever known before !! Without me asking the question i am sure it would never have been deposited in a scheme even though it was only thre for a few weeks.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 15, 2014, 07:03:41 PMWhat about my original question about wanting to see the inventory, 6 month inspection and final inspection report. Are these really protected by Privacy of contract and i'm not able to see them?

An Agent might try all sorts of things to put obstacles in your path... DPA, Client Confidentiality etc. ...they are trying to protect their client and themselves against a mistake one of them has made.

The question straight back to you, though, is this... why do you think you need them? If you are going to Court then they won't help you win your case - your case is won already. You will have all the evidence you need that shows your Landlord did not protect your deposit properly - by this I mean they did not do it on time (doing it late doesn't count) and they (the Landlord) did not serve you with the Prescribed Information.

That is all you need for an - assured - success at Court. There isn't a massive onus of proof on you for anything else.

I provide my Tenants with a copy of the Inventory and the Inspection documents... they are signed by both parties, this just makes sense. It sounds like this Agent is floundering or thinking - mistakenly - that the lack of these will hinder your case... it won't.

I would still have gone via ADR, myself... but if you take the Landlord to Court you will win and the - silly - Landlord will be paying you the deposit back and at least 1x. This is another example of a Landlord sticking their head in the sand, much to my chagrin. I am amazed they will not settle. If I (I never would) found myself in this situation I would settle.

If you think it will help you... keep all your requests for these extra documents on file, ready to use, keep the requests to meet and settle the issue... keep to the facts about the deposit... you add a lot of other info. to your posts that isn't that relevant to the simple situation here.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

P.S. - I'd, personally, still want to write another, more clear and forceful, letter to the Landlord - just making sure they have no doubts that you will win at Court... it's not a grey area... the Landlord will lose and need to pay you the penalty and your costs... maybe the Landlord has been given bad advice by their Agent who is playing fast-and-loose. Once disabused of the notion that any excuse (new Landlord, ignorance, death in the family) might aid their cause and get them off the hook, they might think twice. Of course... another attempt to settle on your behalf cannot look bad once it reaches Court either... ker-ching!

Ouch! Silly Landlord.

Thank you so much for all your help and advice tonight Hippogriff. i really do appreciate it. We never wanted it to go down this route. We just wanted to find a new property and move on with our lives. We are well aware of the risks with renting and that landlords sell houses etc etc. But this one has just proved so dammed greedy and arrogant that it has got to the stage now when i want it to go to court. I have written several letters and have had them thrown back in my face. I have started court proceedings and have paid the court fee so i'm gonna take it all the way. No more chances for the landlord And i need to finish this off because it has affected us badly over the past 3-4 months and seems to dominate our daily lives because it makes us feel so angry that someone just thinks they can behave in this way.
Again, many thanks and i'll keep you informed
Kindest Regards
Tommy

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 15, 2014, 07:54:22 PMI have started court proceedings and have paid the court fee...

Got it. Pity no-one saw sense prior to that.

Hippogriff, could i ask one final question. Our rental agreement stated the landlord had to give us 2 months notice from the rental due date if they wished us to move out and i had to give 1 months notice from the rental due date (30th of the month) if i wished to move out. As i mentioned previously they issued us a section 21a at 5pm on the 30th May and so holding me to 2 months by default which was deliberate and a bit unfair seeing as we had helped them sell the house. So i asked if they could waiver this and if it was possible to move out with a months notice to which they responded no and were holding me to the 30th July moving out date. It then became apparent they had not placed my deposit in a scheme as per the rental agreement so to me the agreement had been broken adn the section 21a was invalid. I informed them of this and not wanting to be awkward i again said i'd move out but still give a months notice (11th july) and pay them up to then. Again they said no and that i needed to pay rent up to the 30th july.

My question is this. They broke the rental agreement in my eyes. Would the law see it that although they broke the agreement first they could still hold me to the 2 month notice period as per the rental agreement even though the section 21a was now invalid and i could have played awkard and remained in the house but i didnt want to because it had been sold and i didnt think it fair to mess a potential buyer around. Would the law see me as being fair by giving them a months notice or would the law go against me and also say i should have paid rent till the 30th july?

I think what you're saying is that... everyone accepts the Landlord has to give at least 2 months notice and the Tenant has to give at least 1 months notice and these would end on a rental period boundary... but the Landlord gave you 2 months notice just at the right time so as to now give you enough time to get your 1 month notice in?

Is that about the size of it? If so, then you just have to give the Landlord a slow hand clap... one thing that was probably done right here (for their own needs).

When a Section 21 is invalid, the Tenant is usually fighting to remain in the property, right?... not get out even earlier.

If you'd been served a Section 21 and you had time, you could have served your own 1 month notice, effectively trumping their Section 21, but it sounds like you did not have the time to do so.

Am I reading that right?

This is all several months back, too, right? I thought your only complaint was the unfair deposit deductions... do you have other stuff going on? Or are you saying someone has come back to you and said - if you don't sue me for the deposit thing, then I would progress anything I think I have on the notice thing?

It's not very clear, to be honest.

Your first part of the response is bang on the money. Absolutely correct. The time i was served the section 21a (5pm on rental boundary date of 30th may) prevented me serving a 1 months notice the following day. I would have to wait until 30th of June to serve my 1 months notice which would take me up to the 30th July which is the date their 2 month notice period finished anyhow.

We vacated the property on the 11th July after giving them a months notice and handed the keys back. At this point they knew the section 21a was invalid due to the non payment of my deposit in a scheme and i had highlighted the fact the rental agreement (which they kept quoting to me with regards to notice period) had been broken by themselves when they didnt hold my deposit in a scheme. Eventually i got an email from the estate agent saying the landlord had agreed to me leaving early and forgoing the remaining rent (up to 30th July). The email also had a 'without prejudice' phrase in it. What does that mean? Have i broken the law by leaving on the 11th july even though i have that email and i feel the rental agreement was broken originally by them and was therefore null and void?

So we left and anticipating problems i had asked the estate agents if we could be present at the final inspection which they refused. Then we get a mail saying they were holding back a portion of my deposit due to the garden not being in a comparable condition which was actually correct.....it was in a far better condition than when we took the house over !!

So at that point i'd had enough and decided to go to small claims court and aswell as the deposit issue i decided to also include the witheld money that was in dispute for the garden instead of using the DPS dispute scheme.

And this is where we currently are. Awaiting a court date.

Hope that all makes sense

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 17, 2014, 05:19:42 PM...i had highlighted the fact the rental agreement (which they kept quoting to me with regards to notice period) had been broken by themselves when they didnt hold my deposit in a scheme.

Possibly not strictly true... I mean, the rental agreement (the AST) is a separate thing to deposit protection. Yes, they're linked, but it will matter whether the AST formally calls out the fact that a deposit will be taken and it will be protected - my ASTs do, for example, my AST has a whole section on the deposit and where it is held, there's even a place for the DPS ID. So, if your AST clearly said the deposit would be protected, and it wasn't, then - yes - I'd say the terms of the AST were broken first by the Landlord. If the AST is silent on what will happen to the deposit, then - no - the terms of the AST haven't been broken, but it still doesn't matter with regards the Landlord breaking the law - that's a given.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 17, 2014, 05:19:42 PMHave i broken the law by leaving on the 11th july even though i have that email and i feel the rental agreement was broken originally by them and was therefore null and void?

This is not a question of law... you may have left early and not paid as much rent as the Landlord, ideally, wanted - but you haven't gone and broken the law - that would be something else entirely. You may have stuck two fingers up at the Landlord and said "I'm not sticking to the terms in this contract"... but it's not anything like breaking the law.

It kinda makes sense but I wonder if you're conflating a number of things together... I was under the impression you just wanted your deposit back and the penalty (whatever it might be) for the non-protection. If you keep it nice and simple, you should get what you want.

I might be missing the point.

that's exactly what i want. I wasnt bothered to start with but because of how the landlord (and estate agent) have acted towards us and the fact i have tried to be civil in all this but have had it thrown in my face i have decided to go to court and get the maximum i think i can. I'm quite sad it has gone this far but some people are just so greedy and feel they can bully you in at every turn. I now just want to prove that you cant treat people this way and expect to get away with it especially if you have broken the law.

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 17, 2014, 09:30:15 PM
i have decided to go to court and get the maximum i think i can. I'm quite sad it has gone this far but some people are just so greedy and feel they can bully you in at every turn. I now just want to prove that you cant treat people this way and expect to get away with it especially if you have broken the law.

This was the right call from the start. Forget the 1x to 3x your deposit money as compensation. If you cover things up and just set things straight, they are going to go and do it again on the next tenants, and the next, and the next....

Landlords and estate agents like these need to be put in place with the maximum means possible. You can't actually force them to behave further one, but losing a couple of thousand pounds will certainly at least pull their ear...

Now, I want to lay out some facts, so it's clear for next time and for everybody reading the thread.

1. You cannot be denied access to the check in and check out inventories. In fact, most of the cases would require your signature on the to be valid. (not always)
2. After handing the deposit there are 30 days available for the landlord / agent to deposit your money in a scheme AND provide you will full information regarding the money, the scheme and the property you're renting. Failure to do either results in them breaking the law and becoming liable at the very instant.
Section 21 notices also become invalid in the same moment and can freely be disregarded by the tenant or someone else involved.
Normally, I'd advise everybody to check in on those facts in the first month of their tenancy. It would most likely reduce the chances of things like  your problem happening. And if they do, there is always the deposit protection service to go to and dispute.
3. Photographic evidence is sketchy if it's not accompanied by both the signatures of the landlord and the tenant. The simple reason for that is you can easily take a few pictures and then trash the place afterwards...  However, it's a nice idea to take a few, just like you did  - they may not hold much value, but they're there to back an opinion.
4. A landlord cannot withhold money from the deposit without the consent of the tenant, or without a formal dispute before the tenancy deposit protection scheme.
5. You want to be there for the check in and check out tenancy inspections. Thus, the inspections cannot falsify information regarding the state of the property.
I'll leave you with this guide we made a few months ago, regarding the most common tenancy problems and solutions. It might come in handy


Regards,
Bob Tenant at Bob's Tenancy Cleaning London

Bob, many thanks for all your advice. Very useful. One quick question though. If you are served a Section 21a which is invalid (due to the deposit issue) then is then could you move out sooner than the end of your rental period? In other words this landlord issued us the 21a on the rental due date at 5pm. That tied me in for 2 months even if i issued my own months notice a day later (due to the months notice period starting on the rental due date aswell). So a few days after the 21a was issued i then discovered the issue with the deposit and wrote to them to say i would be moving out a month later. They would not agree to that and were holding me to the 2 months notice even though they were now aware the 21a was invalid !! I realise this may be unusual in the fact that most people choose to stay longer if a 21a is invalid and i actually wanted to move out earlier. So in my mind the rental agreement was firstly broken by the landlord however their solicitor keeps sending me letters saying i broke the agreement by not serving my full 2 months notice. I'm now a legal person but how can someone break a contract such as the rental agreement but then expect to hold you to the rest of the contract?
For info they are now offering a settlement and have told us via a solicitors letter that we wont get anything from a court case etc etc. To be honest i'm sick to death of this and do want closure but it is the fairness that i want to see sorted. I wont be bullied by someone who is basically greedy and turned down every opportunity i have put their way to settle this amicably. That's 3-4 months of stress and worry and sorting out court papers and fees etc. My partner maybe thinks i should settle but i think people like this should just not be able to get away with this behaviour. Maybe i will lose money or not get as much as the settlement they are offering but to me why should i just fold. It's the principle more than the money.

It depends on the settlement amount.

If they are offering you your deposit back in full, that you dont have to compensate them for the extra months notice, plus enough to cover your time at £20 an hour, and any expenses, take it.

Close to it.... consider it

No where near this, keep going.

IMO

Quote from: Tommy10 on October 31, 2014, 05:17:20 PMFor info they are now offering a settlement and have told us via a solicitors letter that we wont get anything from a court case etc etc.

For the deposit protection aspect? If so, that would be what you call a bluff.

If you add figures to this thread then I am sure people can give their opinions on what's reasonable... it might help you come to a decision. Closure does have its own, intangible, value - for sure.

Like, your example, for the deposit angle only... deposit was £500. Landlord wanted to deduct £250. I disagreed. Landlord has now offered to settle by returning the full deposit plus 1x the deposit amount, so £1,000. I think that's really good. I would take it. Anything less and I'd likely be pushing-on... if a Landlord can't settle this without involving Solicitors then more fool them, they're just compounding all their foolishness.

Thanks Hippogriff, i'll give the amounts down below but i really want to know about the first part of my statement. Their solicitor keeps saying i broke the rental agreement by not seeing out the 2 months notice because i gave them a months notice and moved out after that month (actually 5 weeks after i gave my notice) but that was still 3 weeks early in their mind if you keep to the rental agreement. But in my mind they broke that rental agreement by not securing my deposit so surely that rental agreement is not binding at that point. The section 21a became invalid but i was still fair enough to give them over a months notice. You cant have a contract like a rental agreement which is broken by the landlord in the first instance but then expect me to keep to those parts that are applicable to me like the notice period. Surely you cant have it both ways. Landlord breaks agreement but then holds me to my part of it?

So the amounts are:

Deposit was 1200.

They returned by deposit (remember it was put into a scheme only after i asked about it just before we moved out) but 230 is held in dispute for the garden which i strongly disagree with.

Their solicitor has now sent me a letter telling me i have no chance in getting anything back if i go to court as it wasnt the landlords fault but the Estate agents fault that the money was not invested in a scheme and the landlord is a first time landlord. So the landlord is offering me 1000. But they have also sent my partner a duplicate letter offering the same so i need to ask if this is 1000 or 2000 they are offering. 1000 is not acceptable but 2000 has got me thinking. They also say they will claim back around 700 from me in unpaid rent beacuse i left 3 weeks early according to the section 21a and rental agreemnt (whcih i see as null and void). But that 700 was returned to me by the DPS and is not in dispute so how can they try and claim that back at a later date because they are unhappy i am progressing this through the courts? CAn they do that?

For me i do want to let them know they cant behave in this way and just bully people when they have clearly broke the law. I gave them many chances to settle this amicably and had everyone thrown back in my face. I dont want the hassle of a small claims court but as i said before it's principle now and i feel i need them to know they cant do this.

So i'm thinking of going back and saying give me 3000 and we'll stop court proceedings. But then i feel i am giving in to them to a certain degree.

I'd treat the two issues as being separate.

Certainly treat the two cases as separate... continue with your case for incorrect / late / non-protection of deposit - which you will win. There is no basis to put the onus of blame onto the Estate Agent - the Solicitor is trying to hoodwink you. Ignore their words / claims completely. The law is categorically clear that the responsibility lies solely with the Landlord and ignorance is not an excuse. If the Court decides to be lenient then you will be awarded 1x the deposit... so £1,200 plus £1,200. The Landlord has no right to hold anything in dispute, so the £230 would become yours.

If the Landlord, at a future date, feels he has a grievance against the Estate Agent, that is for him to take up with them in separate action - it's really none of your business and the Solicitor is trying to cloud the issue.

I would certainly be telling the Solicitor that you are well aware their noise is just that. You are well aware the Landlord is solely responsible for protecting the deposit and you are well aware that the Court must find in your favour and you are well aware that the penalty awarded to you will be at least 1x the deposit, but could be up to 3x. As the Landlord has had plenty of opportunity to settle this before going to Court then it is unlikely the Court will look kindly on their shenanigans.

I would either proceed to Court and win that case... that will give you your original deposit plus at least £1,200, but possibly £3,600. Then leave the other matter in their hands - if they wish to sue you for £700 of unpaid rent they are free to do that - their case might have merit, it might not - but the fact is that £700 is less than £1,200 and a lot less than £3,600. It is easier to defend an action, after all, and you can just let a Court decide - do you owe £700 or not. Less worry I would say.

So - I would think - if you treat the issues as being separate and almost entirely unrelated (box them up) then that is a way to go forward.

The first issue is the case you are bringing against them for incorrect protection of your deposit... the outcome is very clear.

The second issue is the case you might have to defend for their claim of unpaid rent... the outcome is much less clear.

The key point is that you don't have to defend something until it happens... at the moment it's just bluster being added to their 'case' to try and offset the damage. You can safely treat the deposit protection as its own issue and proceed right the way through to conclusion on it.

However, alternatively, if the settlement offer becomes interesting, it must be for the full and final settlement of both issues and you must come out on top. It seems you already have £970 back. I would think a full and final settlement for a further £1,430 would mean you have won-out quite well.

((£970 + £230) = £1,200) + £1,200 = £2,400... and no unpaid rent case to defend. Everyone walks away. £1,200 original deposit in full and 1x penalty. That is a settlement. It's a settlement for the best case scenario coming out of Court. The Landlord can expect no better, but it removes the spectre of further action re. unpaid rent for you.

As far as a penalty goes, this is pretty severe if you think about it (even though you have had a bad time of it).

I would also add any fees you may have incurred, of course, but I suppose these are nominal.

QuoteSo i'm thinking of going back and saying give me 3000 and we'll stop court proceedings. But then i feel i am giving in to them to a certain degree.

I do not feel as though this would be giving-in at all... I think £3,000 is a bit more like turning-the-screw. 

Remember - the settlement offer has only come from their side because they know they're in trouble. You don't offer settlement if you're confident there is no case to answer.

What i dont understand is this 'unpaid rent' their solicitor seems to be continually referring to. By the time we left the property the deposit had then been placed in a scheme. After several letters to the landlord and the estate agents (the landlord had instructed the estate agents that we were not to contact him direct again !) we received a letter from the estate agents stating the landlord would release the 700 of 'unpaid rent' to us from the DPS. The letter was tagged with 'without prejudice'. So that part was released to us but he kept the 230 in dispute for the garden which i strongly disagree with.

So to me the 700 was not in dispute. It was released to us. How can you then later start threatening me via a solicitor that i will have to pay the 700 when you have previously released it to us. Surely that is the idea of the DPS. You dont release it to us then try and call it back just because you are bit angry that a tenant has got fed up with the bullying tactics and decided enough is enough and decided to take you to court.

Of course, it's a continuing tactic, right?

The Solicitor will have said to the Landlord "you are in hot water here, is there anything you think of that can be used to offset this claim? has the Tenant done any damage or did they leave owing any rent?" and the Landlord will have replied, "well, they did leave earlier than I wanted" so the Solicitor will have jumped on that. Why would they not? It's their job. Any doubt they can create in your mind is good for them. Them continually referring to it means it's the only thing they have to cling to. Remember, this Solicitor is costing the Landlord even more money! Your posts certainly make it read like they've got you distracted by this... hopefully you're not in a spin about it.

The deposit is there to deduct against damage etc.. It should not normally be used for unpaid rent.

Ignore anything about unpaid rent - don't entertain it. Your case for the protection angle is just separate. Keep it that way in your mind. Just keep saying "I'm happy with my case for the deposit, let's take that to Court first and see what comes out of that" - what will come out of that is your Landlord will get a penalty which will be awarded to you.

If, after that is resolved, the Landlord wants to try and sue you for any unpaid rent they assert is due, that is their right... you'd have to defend it, which you probably would.

Your best bet is to sit tight, communicate back to them that you're feeling assured that a good penalty will be awarded to you from the Court for the Landlord's protection failings. Leave it at that. If they persist, tell them you consider them separate issues and unless a proper offer of settlement - full and final for both issues, no-one owes anyone anything - is made, you'll just continue to Court where the Landlord will be penalised.

I'd expect an offer for settlement that makes more sense to arrive before the deposit angle actually goes to Court.

You are correct that any money willingly returned from the deposit protection scheme can no longer be classed as being in dispute.

I think I would be coming up with my own settlement proposal and putting it forward... one that makes sense and is not designed to equal the maximum possible penalty they could be awarded, plus no downside on the 'unpaid rent' for you - that will just make them want to go to Court, it has to be appealing.

Your deposit was £1,200. You've had £970 returned. I would think another £1,430 would clear the decks for me if it was in full and final settlement, i.e. no unpaid rent case for you to potentially answer (be, as it may, all bluff and bluster).

Do you disagree? It's £1,200 in your pocket.

I'd also think this was appealing to the other side... it's the minimum they could expect to be penalised. Everyone can heave a sigh of relief.

If rejected... go all the way, keep a record of the offer (for the minimum) and use it to good effect at Court... you'd think a Judge would think "the Landlord rejected the Tenant's offer of 1x, that's unreasonable" so will penalise to the tune of more than 1x.

An update. The landlord has offered us around £2000 plus the return of our money he is holding in dispute with the DPS. I hope the landlord has learned a lesson from this. I responded to a letter from their solicitor and i explained why i was taking the court route. Why it was the last route i wanted to take and how i had been ignored every time i had tried to sort this out between us. I told them i was simply 'tired'. Tired of the greed and the bullying of a landlord whose house i had looked after and helped them sell. How angry i was about it all.

Had this person been decent and not so greedy i would not have even gone down the route of compensation. I would have been allowed to serve my notice and handed the house back which had been sold. But they wanted maximum money from me even after i found out they had not held my money in a scheme. I pointed this out and they still would not back down. So this has cost them over 2k and i thank them for paying for my next holiday. All so pointless and a waste of everyones time.

Thanks for all the advice Hippogriff. Much appreciated.

Always good to hear of a resolution. And always good to avoid Court.