UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hello, looking for some advice here,
I rented a room from a property management company (House Managers LTD), I signed a tenancy agreement but there's a catch, the word "deposit" is nowhere to be seen in such agreement however, it states that one of requirements to move in is to pay "2 months rent in advance". During  verbal conversations with the property manager the word "tenancy deposit" was brought up.

I moved out from the property on 5th May 2019. Upon handing in my notice (4 weeks) I asked the property manager when would my deposit be refunded and he stated within 2 weeks after moving out. All of these by SMS.
It has been now more than 4 weeks after I moved out and I still have not received my deposit back.
He said his "accountant" has been given instructions to pay me back but nothing has happened yet. I also strongly believe he did not put the money in a protective scheme. Every time I call him he asks me for more "time" to pay me back.

I politely threatened him by saying I would escalate this to the Council (small claims court or something)

Any advise?
Much appreciated

(I'm going to assume you're ing England.)

Quote from: metalgeorge on June 05, 2019, 04:46:35 PM
I also strongly believe he did not put the money in a protective scheme.

You can check: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/tenancy_deposits/check_if_your_tenancy_deposit_is_protected

Quote from: metalgeorge on June 05, 2019, 04:46:35 PM
I politely threatened him by saying I would escalate this to the Council (small claims court or something)

Nothing to do with council. Try the county court. There's a procedure to follow.

Thank you for your reply.

I am considering using the National Renters Alliance services, would you recommend them?

It is not clear how much money you are talking about here... but the NRA's own example says that if the sum recovered was £2,000 you would give them around £500 of that. You will also need to join their scheme (I felt like putting inverted commas around that, but refrained) and upload plenty of 'evidence'... including AST, Inventory, photos... just be wary of getting help and finding out it severely diminishes any returns due you.

Have you yet checked if a Deposit was protected?

Have you made the ex-Landlord (or their Accountant) that you intend to escalate this to the next level? Please don't alert them to potential non-protection at this stage, just that you're aware the timescale for return of the Deposit has passed and you intend to take this further.

Try your best to use correct terminology... threatening him with the Council ain't gonna work, he'll think you're an airhead who ain't gonna do anything.

The amount is £640.

NRA emailed me back saying that they will work on a no-win-no-fee basis, but I'll be charged 26% of the claim if it is successful.They also checked that my deposit has not been protected (I checked on my side as well) and said that I can make a claim of up to £1700.

On the other hand my landlord has messaged me today saying that his "accountant" transferred the money to my account yesterday but my bank rejected it and sent it back to them. I called my bank and they advised no transfer was made and/or rejected. Now my landlord has asked me for an alternative account.

Thank you all for the replies.

Although the £1,700 doesn't make much sense to me, with what I know about penalties for non-protection of Deposits, "up to" is really the operative word, then their deductions... of course they'll work on a no-win-no-fee basis... because you pay the fee, with your winnings.

This is, of course, all perfectly doable yourself... plenty of Tenants have done so, and have been successful too. There is a thread on this live right now... we await news regarding it.

What would you suggest?

How can I proceed?

I would hold fire, for a while, and see if your Deposit lands with you after the latest communication. Waiting does not limit any action you may or may not take in the near future. Deal with one thing at a time. Let us know if that happens... say, in the next 72 hours. No excuses beyond that, really... up to now, really, but you are where you are.

Hey, thanks for your advice Hippo.
Here's an update.
My landlord refunded only £240 out of the £640. He stated he's taken £400 pounds to cover gas and electric bills from May 2018 to May 2019. Now, those bills, as stated in the tenancy agreement shall be shared by all tenants ( 7 tenants in total) Don't you think £400 pounds each a year is a bit-maybe a lot- too much?
I have asked my landlord for the invoices and he has sent me a Final Written Warning from EDF for an outstanding balance of £2900, I obviously challenged this letter as it is not an invoice, so I am now waiting for the invoices to see the monthly breakdown of the cost for such services.

I have contacted EDF this morning and asked them if this sum of money is normal in a household of 6 bedrooms, where all the tenants have full time jobs ( meaning they do not spend the whole day in the property) and even if at least 2 out of the 7 tenants spent 24/7 in the property the bill would not reach that sum.

I have done some research about my landlord's property company and I have found some interesting information. See attachment.

Hippo, your advise is needed once again, and very much appreciated.

Kind regards.

This has become a whole lot more complex, at least in my mind.

I can only compare what gas and electric would cost for a single person, in a house, and that would be way beyond £400 per year... so, as calculated as for a person basis, it's a great deal. You, surely, have no idea what tariff the property was on, and EDF simply cannot tell you what is the norm for a specific situation - the idea of someone on the phone giving you that kind of advice suggests - to me - that this kind of phone operator needs their calls replaying for training and monitoring purposes... they certainly can't give you any anecdotal 'evidence' that "even if at least 2 people were in the property 24/7 the bill would not reach that sum" - they just can't do that. All they can do is confirm the bill (that's even if they are allowed to discuss that with you) for that property between two dates... that's it.

Add to the fact that I assume, in a household of 7, people come and go throughout the year at different times (just as you are) I find it almost impossible to keep track of things and I would think the Landlord has had to make a best guess over a period... some people will win, some will lose. A monthly breakdown is going to be complex to analyse, I fear, and you have to ask (you must) yourself - is it worth it?

Of course you can start to challenge this... if you think it is not correct. The usual way you would go about this is by raising a dispute with the Deposit Protection Scheme where the Deposit was protected. As you know, if a Deposit was taken and you weren't a Lodger, then you should already have been given full details of where and how and when your Deposit was protected - your understanding is that it wasn't protected at all, but you don't need to fire that off yet.

Now, it is probably time to write to your Landlord (something that almost sounds completely wide-eyed) along the lines of...

"Dear Landlord,

Thank you for the partial return of my Deposit. I do not agree with the size of this deduction, I think it is too high. Therefore I would now like to raise a dispute with the government-approved Deposit Protection Scheme where you protected my Deposit. Please can you provide me with the details of where and when you protected my Deposit so that I can begin the formal procedure for Alternative Dispute Resolution? Of course, I remain open to any improved offer you might be willing to make me in the meantime."

...and see if that receives some kind of response... like - "yer what? I never protected your deposit" or "try that on, sonny, and I'll find you and break your legs" or "sure, here are the details"... and, maybe, we can take it from there. The idea is to raise the spectre of the fact you know about Deposit Protection... the first challenge was - and remains - to try and get an amount of your Deposit back you are happy with... and maybe if your Landlord senses what is going on an improved offer might wing its way to you. At the end of the day you are still liable for the bills, though.

So, what is that amount you would be satisfied with?

Obviously it's not £640?
Obviously it's not £240?

£2,900 / 7 = £414.29... so your Landlord is letting you off a little bit.

I have to disagree with you about £400+ for a single tenant a year on those 2 bills. Do you think 1 tenant pays more than 400£ a year for both bills?

I have had a phone conversation with him yesterday and he said I never paid any deposit to him, but I clearly made a bank transfer with Ref: Deposit, hence why, as mentioned in a previous topic, I strongly believe he never protected my deposit.

I will literally copy and paste your sample message and see what response I get.

Yes, my deposit is for £640.

Have you seen the attachment? If you want further information check this link out   https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08377636
You can tell my landlord is quite dodgy as he has another registered company which is this link   https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11172972

Quote from: Hippogriff on June 07, 2019, 11:31:26 AM
£2,900 / 7 = £414.29... so your Landlord is letting you off a little bit.

The problem lies on that sum, I think that amount of money is for more than 1 year's bills don't you think?

I don't care because I'm unable to make any objective judgement, you see? How do I know what the typical usage is, how do I know if someone has PCs running 24/7 mining Bitcoins in their room, how do I know if someone takes 5 showers per day, how do I know if the heating is up high in the winter (which was cold this year), how do I know if people have the oven on all the time, how do I know what tariff the property is on - could be the worst one out there? Your assertion is groundless and, surely, you must see that? I put it to you that you are also unable to make an objective judgement - you are just hoping that this is the case, right?

The bill is whatever the bill is. If your Landlord has proof of that being the bill for the period you were liable, then it will have to stand - why should you escape your liabilities for your share of any bill? It cannot be metered individually, so it has to be apportioned as equally as it possibly can in this kind of setup.

There is no attachment.

My average household bill for a 4 bedroom house (but not with 4 people living in it) is £1,100 to £1,200 or thereabouts. This house is obviously much larger (in number of bedrooms) and has more people in it. I know that £400 for a year would be much less per person than this house I am living in. So, £400 for a year's a good deal... on a per person basis.

You haven't answered what amount back you would be satisfied with?

It's obviously not the full £640, is it?

If your Landlord said no Deposit was taken, why is money being returned to you at this moment in time? What explanation is there for that?

Quote from: metalgeorge on June 07, 2019, 11:48:45 AMThe problem lies on that sum, I think that amount of money is for more than 1 year's bills don't you think?

I think - and only think - the bill will speak for itself. It is either correct, or it isn't.

Hey.

Landlord is refusing to provide information about my deposit being protected (no surprise), asked him on the phone twice and by email once. He just avoids the question.
I've checked on the 3 schemes and there's no record of it.

I'm also still waiting for those EDF invoices, which I am sure he will never send.

I've done what you suggested to hold my fire for a while, but this guy (landlord) is not even willing to respond nor negotiate.

Any advise?

Thanks.

Write to him -- an old-fashioned letter on paper.  Tell him you believe that your deposit was not protected and you're aware of the statutory penalty for that.  Tell him he can avoid a short sharp trip to Court by writing a good landlord's reference, posted to you but addressed "to whom it may concern", and paying you the sum of £1,500.  Tell him if both these things arrive within seven days you'll agree not to begin Court proceedings.

You may well not get £1,500 in the circumstances.  But it's a good starting point for negotiations.

Hey Mortimer,

Thanks for the advice, I have some more questions though.

1) Is the letter you suggested legal? I mean, it is not blackmailing is it?
2) Should I send this letter with signature required?
3) In case that he does not acknowledge this letter what would the next step be?

Thank you

He hasn't complied with the law and the law says that because of that, he owes you money.  You're asking for him to pay you a debt, and explaining what would happen if he doesn't.  These letters are perfectly normal in the circumstances and certainly legal.  Demanding a good landlord's reference is necessary self-protection because of the risk that he'll pay up and then get revenge via crappy references.

You don't need to send it recorded delivery, but personally, I would.  It'll stand up in Court even if you don't ---- but the experience of signing for the letter before he reads it will do him good and help get his attention.

If he doesn't reply then you can proceed directly to Court.  This is easy and straightforward and there's no need to hang around.  You've given him quite enough time already.

Ok Mortimer, thanks for your reply. This is the letter I am planning to send him, hoping it'll be enough :

13 June 2019
Dear Mr. xxxxx,

I am writing this letter to you as per our dispute regarding my Tenancy Deposit.
I strongly believe you did not protect my deposit for the below reasons:
•   You failed to inform me about protecting my deposit with one of the three government-approved schemes (My Deposits, Tenancy Deposit Scheme and Deposit Protection Service) 14 days after receiving said deposit from me via bank transfer.
•   You have then failed upon my request, in several occasions both verbal and written (email), to provide the reference number where my deposit was (supposedly) protected.
I am aware of the statutory penalty for failing to protect a Tenancy Deposit as well as the procedure to escalate this to a Court.
We both can avoid a sharp trip to Court if you compromise and provide me with a good landlord's reference and a sum of £1500 to settle this matter. I am willing to negotiate.
If such reference is delivered within 7 days of the date of this letter I will agree not to start court proceedings.

Hope to hear from you soon,

That ought to do the trick, I should think.

Hi Mortimer,

Please let me know if you need any further help as sometimes the issue with the security deposit can get complicated. There are many things to take into consideration that tenants normally are not aware of.

You can find me on Instagram as [ill-judged-touting-for-business-crap;stop-it].

Regards.

Thanks for that kind offer.  It is in fact Metalgeorge who asked for help.

Hello again.

Landlord has not responded to my Letter Before Action and the 14 days expire today.

Should I fill in a N1 form?

When should I send the evidence?

Thanks

Sorry for the short delay, I've been in Portugal.

Apply to the Court using Form N1 from here:- https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n1-claim-form-cpr-part-7
Read the N1 form guidance here:- https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/772443/n1a-eng.pdf