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End of Tenancy Cleaning Dispute

Started by FrimleyTenant, August 20, 2019, 08:08:48 PM

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FrimleyTenant

Does anyone have any advice on whether I have a reasonable case for dispute to TDS?

At the end of my tenancy I paid £240 for an end of tenancy clean from a reputable company that guaranteed their work. I took time to do this and checked their work to the best of my ability.

On receipt of the check out report a few missed items were mentioned. Despite not telling me this in advance the agent now refuses to let anyone other than their approved company in to make good on these items and is now charging me £260 for another full clean.

Two issues:
1. If the agent had informed me in advance that I had to use their cleaners to ensure work was covered then I would but I acted on good faith believing that I was doing it right
2. If 1 above is not grounds for no additional cost then I would have no issue with a small charge to cover the items mentioned, probably an hours work, but a full clean seems excessive. When I first queried the wording 'full' with the agent I was even assured that it would only be a charge to cover the items in need of attention.

I am sure I will appeal to the TDS but obviously would prefer not to incur delay if no chance of success. It's the principal of the thing which gets me here as I genuinely thought I was doing the right thing.

Hippogriff

Absolutely go for a Dispute. But before you press any buttons, make sure you inform the Agent of your intention and give them a moment to think about it... the onus of evidence will be upon them, and they may balk at the idea, once it becomes a bit more real. They cannot unilaterally deduct from your Deposit... it must be with agreement, or ADR.

KTC

What is the terms of your tenancy regarding end of tenancy clean, if any? Are you only required to return the property 1) in the same state you received it in less wear and tear 2) you need to return it "clean" 3) you were contractually required to get it "professionally clean" 4) it actually said you are required to use their "approved cleaner"?

You are probably on safe grounds on anything other than 4).

1) they would be entitled only to compensation for loss in value less wear and tear, not the cost of a new professional clean. 2) is similar, though likely arguable that you did what's reasonable especially considering the refusal to let the 1st company to make good. 3) you've done what's required.

FrimleyTenant

#3
Thanks both.

They did not volunteer any information on cleaners but when asked if they had approved cleaners they replied that they had two 'recommended cleaners they used' but did not state I had to use them and to my mind importantly did not state that they were the only ones they would allow in to correct oversights.

I think it was stated to return in same condition, so 1 above.

KTC

Quote from: FrimleyTenant on August 20, 2019, 09:42:58 PM
They did not volunteer any information ...

The convo you had towards the end of your tenancy there doesn't really matter. What matters is what you contracted to.

QuoteI think it was stated to return in same condition, so 1 above

Get out a copy and check, rather than going on your memory. If it is indeed return in same condition, then they're only entitled to loss in value less wear and tear.

Request in writing your full deposit, less what you think is fair deduction, wait the requisite period and then open the ADR with the deposit scheme.

FrimleyTenant

Wording in agreement is:
"To clean to a good standard, or pay for the professional cleaning of the Premises and Fixtures and Fittings at the end of the Tenancy, to the same standard to which the Premises and Fixtures and Fittings were cleaned prior to the start of the Tenancy, as stated in the check in report of the Inventory and Schedule of Condition"

Incidentally I have no problem with accepting cleaning had missing items. My argument is that they should allow cleaners back to fulfil their guarantee or at least charge me a fee in proportion to the oversight, not a full clean.

KTC

Quote from: FrimleyTenant on August 20, 2019, 10:40:41 PM
Wording in agreement is: ....

In that case, just request the deposit back in full.

You were requried to clean to a good standard OR pay for pro clean etc. etc. The qualification and comparsion against the Inventory doesn't apply to the first option. You paid for a professional clean using a reputable company (assuming that is indeed the case), your argument is that the result was a good standard. That it may be a lower standard to what the landlord wants is neither here nor there.

KTC

Actually, you can probably argue you've satisfied the second option as well. You paid for a professional cleaning to the standard required. The contract doesn't require that the professional cleaning is actually to the standard stated, just that you paid for such a service.

FrimleyTenant

Quote from: KTC on August 20, 2019, 11:04:00 PM
Actually, you can probably argue you've satisfied the second option as well. You paid for a professional cleaning to the standard required. The contract doesn't require that the professional cleaning is actually to the standard stated, just that you paid for such a service.

That's nice - are you a solicitor :)

Thanks for the advice, it really is appreciated - I have notified the agent that I am not approving the charge and will see what they come back with before I threaten to take it further.

I also, by virtue of another thread on here, realise that the goods I left at the property believing to be the landlords but that they are now charging me to remove as part of cleaning I actually have a right to collect.  They never mentioned this and I thought that these goods were simply forfeit. The tenancy agreement actually makes it clear I have 14 days to collect them from the date I was notified and that no charges can be made for disposal until after this date.  A couple of items were brand new that I bought to replace other items I believed belonged to the landlord.

They also increased an amount on the draft invoice which had previously been marked as a final amount.

heavykarma

Certainly dispute it if they refuse to return your deposit.Even if the cleaning that was missed was something like a dirty oven,it would not cost £260 to  get it sorted.I suspect they will get a nice commission by trying to force a particular cleaner on you.I have never had a tenant get cleaners in when leaving.Rarely do they leave things as they found them,but as I usually, do additional cleaning myself I can only charge for cleaning materials,not my time.I have only had professionals in when things were stomach-churningly filthy.I see a house round the corner from me has what looks like a bio-hazard team in today,after tenants moved out. Poor landlord.

Regardless of what they say, if the place is in a state to be relet,as you found it,then you are not at fault.

FrimleyTenant

Thanks HK,

Yes I do despair of the state some people leave property in.  My last property I cleaned myself and ended up being charged for a full clean so this time I was determined to do it right. I had the oven cleaned and the curtains in addition to the full end of tenancy clean - the outstanding items mainly related to the utility room where they felt the cabinets, counters and sink were not clean enough and then a few marks / smudges around the rest of the house.  Other than that it was spotless.

It's just soul destroying knowing that I spent all that money for a company with a guarantee and now I may have to pay all over again.

The landlord is having work done on the property before new tenants arrive, so I suspect the full clean is to cover the tidy up after it has been completed.  Maybe if they had consulted with me beforehand we could have come to an agreement so that the clean was done afterwards.  Being charged to remove goods that apparently I own and should be allowed to collect is just rubbing salt in the wound.

Hippogriff

The Landlord can't charge you for cleaning after others (workmen, kitchen fitters, plasterers etc.) have been traipsing about in the property... the whole idea is just a nonsense. Is there a way you can validate that people are in there, working?

FrimleyTenant

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 21, 2019, 01:35:02 PM
The Landlord can't charge you for cleaning after others (workmen, kitchen fitters, plasterers etc.) have been traipsing about in the property... the whole idea is just a nonsense. Is there a way you can validate that people are in there, working?
No proof - I am local so in theory can check if there is work occurring but I will not know when / if the cleaning has occurred.  I guess that is a sideshow and not particularly relevant to the main issue.
The agent has come back and offered to provide 2 of the items listed as left that the cleaning company has - implies cleaning has occurred - but no mention of the other goods classed as mine but that I have been charged for disposal of 12 days after being informed.

They are saying the cleaning charge was not a full charge - despite the schedule saying 'Full clean required and cost to dispose of items left'.  They claim that for the size of the property (3 bed) their cleaners would charge £354, and that despite a lot of oversights their charge came in at £245 so £109 less. I do not see the relevance of the property size if it is not a full clean and only a specific set of items.

I certainly do not agree that there were 'a lot of oversights' - the removed objects were not oversights - they were my goods.  Of the remaining 12 many were small (radiator wipe, fridge wipe), a bin seems to have been removed rather than cleaned (as it is now being offered to me), and indeed some (sink, plug, tap) were split out to appear more whereas they were effectively the same item.  In effect the cleaning was confined to cabinets, worktop and sink in the utility room and a few small items around the rest of the property.

Out of interest I went back to the company that did the cleaning for me and wanted to fulfil their guarantee. They looked at the list and tell me they would have quoted £66.

We'll see how it pans out - guess I am resigned to dispute resolution but we'll see what they come back with.


Hippogriff

Resigned to it? Just go with it... and embrace it. It's the other side that will be resigned to it... if they actually get there without backing-down.

heavykarma

If they are insisting you collect the items left behind,can't you have a quick wipe round at the same time? 

FrimleyTenant

Quote from: heavykarma on August 21, 2019, 07:44:18 PM
If they are insisting you collect the items left behind,can't you have a quick wipe round at the same time?

I don't think they are insisting.  I think most of 'my' items have been disposed of (wrongly) as they only mention a couple of the items that they say the cleaners still have and will drop at their office if I want to pick them up.  So it looks like the cleaners have been...before the cost was approved. 

In any case I accept that it requires more than a wipe but one or two hours of work would almost certainly be sufficient.  Without guidance to the contrary I believed my professional registered cleaning company would have been able to make good any defects.

FrimleyTenant

Additional information:

It seems that the schedule of Damages and Reimbursements provided was only a subset of the cleaning defects mentioned on the Check-out report.  This schedule was very selective in that while it mentioned 'Remove Glass' it did not mention 'Dusty all through, all electrical sockets and doors need cleaning and cobwebs around'.  I probably feel a higher level of reclean than I originally thought was necessary - although I do not feel the photographs reflect the level of cleaning that had been completed. 

However a couple of questions, on which other than the Tenancy Agreement wording, my argument now lies:


  • Is it appropriate to include only a selective subset of relevant items on the Schedule of Damages and Reimbursements?  I would have thought the difference between the check-out report and the schedule was to identify those items that required recompense?
    • Is it standard that agents, or indeed private landlords, do not allow cleaners back in to make good on their guarantee, or am I right in feeling I should have been told before hiring my own professional cleaning

    Thanks in advance, you guys have been great.[/list]

    Hippogriff

    If the tenancy has ended... and a Check-Out is usually (not always) done on the very last day of the tenancy, then there would be situations when I'd allow an ex-Tenant to access the property again... it's my property again now, and I need it to do whatever I want with it. If there is still time left - in that the Check-Out was done, say, a week before the tenancy ended and you still have keys... then, sure, fill your boots... as long as you don't damage anything... but it's Check-Out when the assessment is made... so changes post Check-Out are quite difficult.

    This seems like common sense, though? I don't think you need to be told this. This is kind of like the "objects in the mirror are closer than they appear" and "this coffee is hot" type of thing... sometimes you know, unless you'e an idiot (and no-one has suggested you are).

    Think about it... why would an ex-Tenant (or their Agents (Cleaners)) be allowed back into a property post-Check-Out? Maybe the guarantee you should've got was a monetary one, whereby the company guarantees their clean will pass any Check-Out and, if it doesn't and you get stung somehow, they swallow that cost. That would be a worthwhile guarantee - I would hardly ever let someone, who had previously demonstrated they don't do a good job (subjectively), back to do a better job!?!

    I'd still just send it to ADR and see what comes out in the wash...

    FrimleyTenant

    Thanks HG,

    I guess what is common sense to someone who knows an area is not to someone who has only been through it twice.  If cleaners offer such guarantees - and many do - you tend to trust (rightly or wrongly) that they are usable, unless you have other suggestions to the contrary.  After all if you were handed a coffee and told it was not hot, would you assume it was hot?

    I just think bearing in mind the confusion that the agent played a part in we could have found a compromise - for example my paying for the time of someone in their office to be present in the property for a couple of hours.  They just never discussed it and just went for the easiest solution without any consideration as to the effort I had made.

    I know it is totally irrelevant now but I spent 2 months last October - December with no heating and when completed the system then developed a leak which caused damage to my property and the property itself - which was not then repaired. Likewise on two occasions their 'vetted' contractors broke goods in the property and on at least one occasion entered without permission.  I never sought nor was offered compensation - I just wanted a little of the same flexibility here.

    I accept the cleaning was not perfect and have offered a fair (indeed probably over fair) compromise bearing in mind the efforts made.  We'll see what happens.

    Hippogriff

    Quote from: FrimleyTenant on August 23, 2019, 09:24:25 AMI guess what is common sense to someone who knows an area is not to someone who has only been through it twice.  If cleaners offer such guarantees - and many do - you tend to trust (rightly or wrongly) that they are usable, unless you have other suggestions to the contrary.

    Common sense again, I'm afraid - it's not in the Cleaner's gift to promise you they'll be allowed access to a property that is now off-limits, due to the tenancy ending. If it was your home, sure... if you were mid-tenancy, or at least still had possession, sure... but this was after the tenancy ended, after Check-Out - there's no access to you or anyone you may employ now. No Landlord or Agent would allow that under normal circumstances.

    So the assumption that their guarantee was worth anything has been an assumption on your part. Sorry, but the Landlord could've sold it to someone (example) and what happens then, the Cleaners rock up to someone else's house and say "I'm here to complete the cleaning" and the new owner is like... what?

    Consider this a learning experience - nothing's perfect, y'know? Renting and letting (both sides) is fraught with challenges and disappointments... you admit there were a number of issues, it sounds like (maybe?) it's time to bite the bullet... either suggest a compromise they can get behind, while threatening ADR to focus their minds, accept your 'penalty' with good grace and meekly move on, or say "stuff it" and just go to ADR whatever may happen.

    I guarantee you this... and my guarantee is worth something... in five years you won't give a crap about this. Move on, 'cos it's time to groove on...