UK Landlord Forum / Life

We have had the most horrendous tenants imaginable who have lied, cheated, conned and stolen off us. I could tell you the whole story but it would take forever and you probably wouldn't believe half of it! After an awful 10 months we knew that they had moved out as neighbours had told us. The girlfriend confirmed she had moved out but said that the male was still living there which we knew was untrue. They were just stringing us along because they had been found out by the benefits team they were living together when they shouldn't have been. We did something which we now know we shouldn't have done. We visited the property and could clearly see through the windows that it was empty. They had cleared everything out even our washing machine and fridge! All that was left was a couple of bin bags and an old dressing table. On seeing this we entered the property and husband changed the locks. The tenant found out and said we had no right to do that as he hadn't formally moved out, handed keys back  etc etc. we offered to meet him at the flat with the new keys if he was still living there but he didn't take us up on it and we also offered to bring the 2 bin bags and dressing table to him.
We are currently with a solicitor who has been appointed via our landlord insurance since June and they have not even got to the point of taking any action yet. We submitted all the required information they asked. They made a big deal that we didn't give the tenants a leaflet about the deposit scheme(which we didn't know we had to do) and advised we paid them the deposit back even though the property was absolutely trashed and they had stolen washing machine and fridge.
They also had an issue over the gas safety certificate. One was in date when they entered but expired a couple of months later. We tried to arrange dates for BG to attend but they kept making excuses not to be in etc so a new one wasn't done over the 9 months they were there.  I submitted our tenancy agreement weeks ago and they have only just got back to me to say that the signature is missing off the AST. Confused I checked the tenancy which is one of those government template ones and stupidly we had gotten them to sign the wrong section. So annoyed with myself!!  The solicitors won't apply for section 21 they advise section 8 because of the reasons already stated but this was before I knew about the tenancy not being signed properly...
Anyway what I want to know before I get back in touch with the solicitor is whether the agreement is legal even though it's not signed? It was emailed to them and they were given a printed copy. I employ staff and have had issues in the past when very old contracts haven't been signed but I was advised by a HR company that they still stand as the employee was working and was being paid so had accepted the terms and conditions so to speak. I'm thinking that this should be the case with the tenancy agreement?
This is the first and last time we will ever rent, it's not a position I ever want to find myself in again. It just feels like everything is on the tenants side and there is no help for landlords. After some words of wisdom please.

The solicitor is advising you to use a section 8 notice, because a section 21 notice can fail for all kinds of minor admin reasons, and you have more than a few from the sound of it.

The tenancy agreement is probably valid (but it doesn't usually matter that much because a tenancy doesn't require a written agreement), but with an unsigned agreement, there would have to be a hearing for the section 21 notice, which, again makes a section 8 more helpful.

When you get really smart and dodgy tenants they can tell that you're not sure about what you're doing very quickly. If by the "leaflet about the deposit scheme" you mean the "Prescribed Information" that's been a legal requirement for nearly two decades now, and any tenant who knows what they're doing will realise quite quickly that their landlord isn't really sure what they're doing. They'll also be able to take you to court to take some more money from you if they want to.

It sounds as if you now have control of the property again, and, unless the tenants try and claim you've illegally evicted them, which you have done, I don't think the notice and possession claim will matter much in practice.
If they do, you're going to have a bigger problem anyway, because that's a criminal offence.

Thanks, no we don't have ownership of the property back. We have not stepped back in it since the locks changed. We immediately askwd them to meet us at the property to let him in but he declined and not got back in touch since. The solicitors are aware of this and are preparing a section 8.
Yes we may be naive but we never set out to make a business from this. We became landlords by default, this was our first family home which we bought in 2008 just before the recession and after having two children we had outgrown it being a 2 bedroom apartment. We couldn't sell due to negative equity and also since the grenfell towers tragedy because the housing association couldn't provide us with an EWS1 form. We researched and used a landlord checklist to make sure we had done everything required. It didn't state on the checklist about providing the tenant with a prescribed leaflet when we opened the deposit scheme so yes that was missed. Everything else was in place, even had a landlord licence off the council which we had to provide all sorts of evidence for.
As for the tenants they put our flat up for rent on marketplace under false landlord names and a couple came and viewed the property and paid £900 to them before realising they had been conned. We also had a bad leak from two stories above and when insurance got contractors in to fix, they made it so unpleasant for them that they agreed a settlement of £1400 to not finish the work. We found out and had the money paid to us rather than them as it was our insurance policy. In the nine months they were there we only got 3 months rent off them. They provided references to say that they were working yet actually I found out later that one was on universal credit and she was telling them that she was paying us the rent in cash and that we were not providing receipts. This has all been reported and the police are not interested. This has been the worst year of our lives and yes we ended up resorting to changing the locks once we knew they were not living in the property. They had threatened to destroy the kitchen and and interior walls.
Towards the end The girl confirmed she had left the property and the guy had said he just had a couple of things left to collect which we read as he wasn't living there. We were desperate at this point, I have MS amd the stress was making me Ill  and my husband had been signed off work with stress also. Just feels like everything is in the tenants favour. DWP were not bothered by the fraud claims of the fact she had kept our rent money. The police were not bothered by the couple who had been conned out of £900.
Thanks again for your advice.

Even if there was no tenancy agreement,there is still a tenancy,so I would not worry about the signature issue.It does not sound as if you had proper checks carried out,personal references are useless.Let your solicitors deal with it now,do not communicate with the tenants.Good luck.

Quote from: Mickcon on September 11, 2022, 02:00:31 PMIt just feels like everything is on the tenants side and there is no help for landlords. After some words of wisdom please.

You might not want to hear this, but it feels l like it might be words of wisdom...

If you have possession of the property (in that the Tenant isn't there, you've changed the locks and they don't have new keys - that counts as possession for me, or - at least - someone else doesn't) why are you still trying to progress an eviction via Section 21 or Section 8? You likely need to take the approach of: you'd assumed implied surrender... however shaky it might be... the fact you turned-up and reconnoitred the property, finding it to be empty apart from 2 big bags, has to be what your actions stand on, I think. Hopefully nothing further comes of this, but only time will tell. Especially worrying will be any Deposit-related activities.

Commentary - it feels like "everything is on the tenants side and there is no help for landlords" because you've come up against a savvy Tenant while you are - demonstrably - an incompetent Landlord. If your actions demonstrated a good level of competence then you might not have ended up in this situation, with this added uncertainty. So I agree with your first entry conclusion - "This is the first and last time we will ever rent..." - remember that no-one is forced to become a Landlord... of course there are complications here, I get that, and I don't dismiss them, but your choices (coupled with some misfortune) led you here.

In a later entry you say - "...no we don't have ownership of the property back." - but I think you do, certainly the ex-Tenant doesn't. It can't be no-one and they're obviously living elsewhere and not paying either you rent, or the Council Council Tax, or the utility company bills. You have possession back, I would say... it might not be neat and nicely packaged, but you can't make it much worse by assuming this at this stage. The changing of the locks before it was all bundled-up with a nice bow wasn't a good move, but the offer to claim the new keys wasn't taken-up. QED.

To clarify my thoughts...

After they've gone, I doubt they're coming back... and retrospectively progressing some eviction route seems worthless... whatever the ex-Tenants do in this regard they'll do anyway, it won't change historic facts, will it? So I'd consider you have the property back and move on as if the Tenancy ended to plan... if you get a shock later on, well, you would've anyway (I believe).

Quote from: Mickcon on September 11, 2022, 07:04:31 PMJust feels like everything is in the tenants favour. DWP were not bothered by the fraud claims of the fact she had kept our rent money.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, because lots of people read these forums, what the tenants did wasn't fraud (other than in a moral sense perhaps), it's simply how Universal Credit works.
People are given a sum of money to live on, which may include an element for their housing, and what they do with it is up to them.

Landlord can ask for the housing element to be paid to them direct, but that's complicated and prone to problems (if the tenant's entitlement changes, the landlord can be required to pay money back).
But a tenant claiming for their housing and not paying rent to the landlord isn't fraud and the DWP can't do anything about it.

It does not sound as if you can go ahead and sell,unless the circumstances you describe have changed for the better. If you have no choice but to carry on letting it,please be much more careful.You have been very unlucky. I hope that is the last you hear from the tenants,be grateful when the garbage puts itself out!