UK Landlord Forum / Life

First time poster.  I apologise, I've no doubt this subject has been covered a billion times...and yet here I am :-)

Some direct questions if I may:

1. On a fixed term AST (6 months) when can I issue the 21?  is it at the end of month 4 - giving the 2 months notice taking tenant up to the end of fixed term?
2. When should I send the notice/letter that I'm going to seek possession under 21?  i.e. at what point in the tenancy should I send the letter?
3. If I didn't record the deposit - is the 21 a non-starter?  i.e. agreed to take deposit in instalments so couldn't record it in 30 days from move in.

Other (semi) related things:
4. Is it possible to amend/add to the clauses in my AST, say after the fixed term expires and issue a new one instead of letting it roll into a month-to-month?
5. I'm now thinking a Periodic tenancy is better.  Can I simply amend my fixed term AST with a periodic clause?  if so, anyone want to share this clause with me?

Thanks, and sorry for the questions.  Correct answers to these might just change my life ;-)

1. Correct
2. You can send it prior to the dates they require
3. You're in trouble.  Section 21 is invalid, your argument is total nonsense the DPS allow you to add instalment deposit amounts.  You need to return the deposit prior to issuing the section 21.  Tenant can sue you for between 1-3X the deposit amount for not protecting it.  They have 6 years and 30 days from when they gave you the deposit to do this.
4. You can request that the tenant has another fixed term AST, they don't have to agree, if they don't, let them be or evict them, the tenancy will turn into a periodic tenancy.
5.  There is no clause its called a 'Statutory Periodic Tenancy'.  It is in statute that all tenancies turn into SPTs after their fixed term.

I'm a little confused as to why you want to issue a Section 21 when you're also talking about the tenancy continuing after the end of the initial six month period. You only need to issue a S21 when you want the property back.

Riptide's right: you've made a bit of a bish of things on the deposit front. You'll need to protect it or give it back before you can serve a valid S21. You'll also need to have served the prescribed information as well as complied with the requirements re EPC, Gas safety certificate etc.

When does the current fixed term run to?

Guys, thanks for taking the time out to reply.

Its not confusing, Simon.  These are questions and each point is independent of the next.  It's clear now, I can return the part deposit firstly, then issue a 21.  No drama there and takes me 5 minutes.

I'm still not sure as to whether I can amend a new tenancy with alterations after the first one expires? for example, I might want to say, no pets, etc. I'm going to assume that if they already have a pet and it wasn't in the initial tenancy then its unreasonable for me to put this - dos that about right? 

But why are you issuing a section 21 if you want the tenants to stay?  A section 21 requests that the tenancy ends and they get out.

I'm not.  I've not said that. 

All the other questions are noise level compared to the total cock-up that is number 3.

All this talk about new tenancy after the initial one expires and amending it etc. demonstrates dreadfully confused thinking. If the first tenancy ends and doesn't auto-transition to SPT, then you have a new tenancy, you don't need to amend anything. Your AST document will, physically, be something different / something else and you're not amending anything - you are agreeing a new contract. If you do transition to SPT, then the same terms and conditions as the fixed term tenancy exist and any amendments should be both agreed and documented, i.e. not enforced. Your example given of "no pets" is a worrying one indeed. As it sounds (and I accept I could be reading more into this than is real) like you've got Tenants who thought they could have pets, they have gotten pets, you don't want pets and you want to amend the existing tenancy so they're forced to get rid of their pets... and with it being Christmas too! For shame.

calm down, Hippogriff :-)

there is no total-cock up on anything and all is quite easily fixed.  Not sure why such drama?  perhaps its just posturing here - forums are often this way.  Appreciate you taking the time to comment, however.  I have enough input here to amend my processes.

You're taking the non protection of the deposit and a potential claim of 3x the deposit to be paid back to the tenant really well.  Most people kick up a stink, say it's not fair, that they didn't know etc etc.  Giving back the deposit does not make this issue go away, there is no way of fixing it, if the tenant claims, their claim will be sucsessful.  That was the cock up that he speaks of.

Guys, come on, I appreciate the input really, but calm down a bit.  I've taken legal advice in parallel to this and its not really a big problem at all.  I was asking questions that were independent of each other, which I thought was obvious - and your answers have helped me, so thanks.

this is why I rarely post on forums - the rhetoric is so different to that in real life and I can never understand why ;-)

What did your legal advice say about the non protected deposit?

Quote from: olweiser on November 23, 2017, 09:34:32 AMthere is no total-cock up on anything and all is quite easily fixed.

Yeah, there is a total cock-up... and, yes, it's quite easily fixed... with - potentially - money (being paid from you, to your Tenant). You do appear to be fumbling.

Hippograff, grab some wood and stop being cantankerous.  If you have some good insight, please share, otherwise stop trying to undermine me, its pathetic.

Lawyer said, jut return the part deposit before sending the 21.  The same would apply to any prescribed documents that might be missed for any future 21's you want to send.
with this info, it really does help any landlord that may have missed a document, or in fact any tenant that pretends they didnt receive a document - just say, that's fine and resend it to them.

You're not answering the question about what the Lawyer has said about the penalty for you breaking the law..? Has he(?) said it doesn't apply to you because you're "getting your processes in order"? I hope so... as that will be great for others too.

something else on your mind, Hippograff?   

Quote from: Hippogriff on November 23, 2017, 11:03:31 AM
You're not answering the question about what the Lawyer has said about the penalty for you breaking the law..? Has he(?) said it doesn't apply to you because you're "getting your processes in order"? I hope so... as that will be great for others too.

Did I miss this question somewhere?  its not on my thread....he said the law doesn't apply to me because I'm awesome.  He also said Hippograff could be more awesome if he dropped the bad attitude.  I told him, this is unlikely.  We then said our goodbyes.

Awesome!!!

A new kind of awesome!

Quote from: olweiser on November 23, 2017, 11:20:52 AMDid I miss this question somewhere?  its not on my thread....

It's here...

Quote from: Riptide on November 23, 2017, 10:21:56 AMWhat did your legal advice say about the non protected deposit?

Forums are a 2-way thing... you ask some things, you might get answers... you might be asked other things, it's up to you whether you choose to see them, answer them or pretend you didn't.

Hippogriff,
I don't tolerate arrogance, especially from someone behind a keyboard.  You wouldn't talk to me this way face to face, here should be no different.

And,
"What did your legal advice say about the non protected deposit?"  is NOT the same as,

"You're not answering the question about what the Lawyer has said about the penalty for you breaking the law..?" 

It is argumentative, and I don't appreciate it.  I invite you to go back to the beginning of this thread and take stock of what I respectfully asked the forum members and your subsequent replies.  in other words, stop being a dick and grow up.

The only way you get to choose what you tolerate here is by departing. If you do, you do... no-one will care. You probably don't see how you've rubbed people up the wrong way in just a few forum entries.

Of course, it goes without saying that I would talk to you exactly the same if I met you face-to-face - I talk to all imbeciles very slowly and purposefully. I give them time to collect their thoughts about the predicament they've found themselves in, no matter how busy they're being trying to bury their head in the sand. You have been asked what your Lawyer said about the non-protection of the deposit - your failure to protect the deposit (because, like all clever people, you kinda decided the rules weren't for you)  - on a couple of occasions now. You'd rather split hairs than give a straight answer. I think we know what's happened - you will have raised it and your Lawyer has advised you that you're up a creek without a paddle, if your Tenants decide to do anything about it... as we all know you are anyway. We don't relish it, we don't revel in it - we just know the score... whereas you, you're just learning about it.

We're still here if you need more advice... for Landlording basics and about how to deal with people and suchlike.

And all argumentative stuff aside... I guess it's "not really a big problem at all" if the deposit was only, like, £100... anyone can afford 3x that and brush themselves off. But it gets real painful when it's a £1,000 deposit and someone ends up demanding 3x that, for each tenancy that might have theoretically existed, plus compensation for their costs... and emotional distress etc.. It's when people receive a Solicitor's letter demanding £12,000 or more (that's happened on here recently) that it starts to get a little prickly... a bit edgy. Hence a question like this is a pertinent one as you admit to not protecting the deposit, instead coming up with something that sounded like a reason, but was actually just an excuse that you'd made-up.

Hippo, I can smell narcissism coming a mile off.   When a question is raised in a forum, answer it in a way that isn't arrogant or condescending.  I've been in business a long time, and I've learned never to back down to internet bullies.  I also help and offer a lot of advice to others on other forums where I wouldn't tolerate you're rhetoric.

Despite your concern for me, and what appears to be my world is about to fall part its been sorted in 1 phone call.  Figure that, Hippo!  A solution to a problem was found in business.  WOW.

Ah, I'm glad that you acted on the advice your Lawyer surely gave you. It's the same advice I always give - don't let it go to Court. I'm curious - how much did it cost you? Please do make sure you get something signed that means whatever you've offered is in full and final settlement.

None of the long-term members here need any advice from you about how to answer questions - let's just all be glad someone did, and really helped you out. Obviously you couldn't get that help from another forum(s) where you offer help and advice... good for you (I thought as I read such a narcissistic comment).

You claim that you don't tolerate a lot of time... yet, you do seem to. Strange. You seem to engage on a similar level to that you claim to abhor. Useful to know.

The thing is we'd be failing in our duty if we didn't warn you about the sanction for failing to protect a deposit. If you protect it now, and serve the prescribed information, then the most you could get stung for is three times the deposit. In reality it would be more likely to be one times the deposit, which, you can obviously afford to lose. Just mentally write it off and if your tenant never makes a claim then it's a bonus.

The real risk comes if you don't protect the deposit, and then issue a new tenancy agreement every six months. Three years later your tenant leaves and it's all smiles and a couple of months after that a demand lands on your doorstep from a bunch of ambulance chasers for fifteen grand. That's a hell of a price to pay for what is effectively a single mistake, but it happens, and you don't have to look far back in this forum to find examples. That's why we make what might seem to you a disproportionate fuss about not protecting the deposit. If you want it in black and white, here it is: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/214

Incidentally, if your legal adviser has found a way to avoid having to pay out, don't be shy: there are plenty of people on here who'd like to know about it.

I'm thinking that the OP is Italian, one phone call, problem disappears, capiche?

Will I also disappear?

Every cloud...

Quote from: Simon Pambin on November 23, 2017, 04:17:59 PMThat's why we make what might seem to you a disproportionate fuss about not protecting the deposit.

To be fair to the OP, I make a disproportionate fuss about most things going on... I've been in business a long time, you see?

I'm thinking this forum is like a pack of wolves, with a gang mentality.  Masons?

You really ought to calm down. I was asking some questions, and you went way beyond what is neccessary which was completely self serving.  You'd get a lot more people here posting if you offered advice without your agenda. 

Capiche?

I'm out. 

Oh dear, you feel undervalued! Truth is we are actively trying to dissuade numpties from posting inanities like you did... you didn't seem to grasp that. Just like you didn't grasp your legal obligations as a Landlord... but you've been doing it for years, why change? Don't worry about legislation. Awesome.