UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi
I'm a newbie to forums and being a landlord ... so apologies if this seems like an essay 

My tenants of 5 years were served with a S21 in March. Everything went ok and they moved out end of April. However, since then it's gone a bit pear-shaped. At the start of the tenancy their deposit was placed with the TDS and is around £1000.

At check-out (not done by me), a number of problems were found, i.e. property not cleaned (I think this is standard), carpets not cleaned, lights not working, infested with clothes moths to the extent my carpet is slowing disappearing, broken patio door frame, and other small damages. I visited the property fhe following day, and texted my (ex)tenants saying I had a few issues. Their response was to say they were taking advice and the schedule of inventory was binding. I only wanted to query some of the observations found!

According to the Tenancy Agreement, I had 10 working days to let them know if I was making deductions. I sent them a letter, with a table of observations and remedial action but no costs as I am awaiting quotes for work to be done ... currently at the mercy of companies. Today I received a forwarded email from them, from a friend, suggesting that I was being unreasonable, that I should have paid back what I was going to return, and that I would have 24 hours to return it.

My query is ... have I misunderstood something? I am under the assumption that I only needed to inform them I wasn't returning all their deposit. Further, the deposit can only be returned when both parties agree any deductions. Further still, I haven't asked them for any money yet as I'm still tryiing to collect costs. Finally, can they demand I return the deposit within 24 hours?

Any advice on this would be much appreciated as I'm getting quite annoyed/frustrated/dispondent and am ready to just hand over the money and be done with.

Thanks in advance
Sukibee

If you didn't do the check out who did and who did the check in and inventory?  A 3rd party company?

By having the deposit protected the route of ADR is open to both LL and T.  Go down that route.

The TDS sort this out.

You have advised them they are not getting all there deposit back.

They have 90 days to claim it from the TDS, you then tell the TDS how much you are willing to give back and why. They arbitrate, then you get your money and they get theirs based on the findings.

Quote from: Riptide on May 15, 2015, 09:39:52 PM
If you didn't do the check out who did and who did the check in and inventory?  A 3rd party company?

By having the deposit protected the route of ADR is open to both LL and T.  Go down that route.

The schedule and check in was done by myself although the schedule was checked by my letting agents. The checkout was done by my partner as I was at work. Additional sheets were added listing the observations then signed by both parties.

Since sending them my letter, they have made no attempt to discuss the issues. I haven't obtained all quotes and was advised by the letting agents to gather all costs before telling the Ts how much will be deducted.

Their response is a forwarded email from someone who appears to be a friend advising them. Should I respond to this email or just raise a dispute with the TDS?

Firstly, get your costs together. Why is there a delay, you've had over 2 weeks?

Then write to the ex-Tenants, don't respond to the email - just start a new conversation (not including the friend), detailing these costs as a proposed deduction.

Your expectation, from what I gather, is that they will rail against this.

If they, however, come back with a compromise amount, then you might be willing to consider that. I suspect you expect them to come back asking for their entire deposit back - in that case, just propose Alternative Dispute Resolution as the means of resolving the issue - that's what it's there for.

You can't unilaterally decide to retain a portion of their deposit. They can't unilaterally decide to take it all back.

P.S. - try your list out on us first if you want... we can cast our eyes over it and tell you if we think you've got a chance of being successful. Remember the rules around fair wear and tear and you only claiming the correct portions for things that have been damaged / destroyed / lost based on their age and expected lifetime.

Thank you for comments so far.

In response to Hippogriff, it has taken 2 weeks as I am reliant on the various companies to be available at a time convenient to both of us. Then there is a delay (for reasons I don't know) with getting the quote either by email or post. In hindsight I should have appointed an Agent but hadn't anticipated that this would go so wrong ... it will be different next time.

Also, it would be great if you could just have a scan through my main issues. Minor repairs and replacements, i.e. window panes, broken door handles, damaged taps, etc could be described as damaged due to wear and tear and I will ask for recompense in full, although I am prepared to pay from my own pocket. However, other costs are as follows:

1. Property, carpets and curtains not cleaned. Black mould in the upstairs rooms. I am expecting full costs to be paid, particularly as this is a clause in the Tenancy Agreement.

2. Replacement of living room carpet due to moth damage + fumigation costs. I will ask for fumigation costs in full, but only a % for carpet replacement (is there a formula for calculating proportional costs or is it finger in the air guesstimate?)

3. TA asks for all lights to be working at the end of the tenancy. A number were not so I am costing for replacements.

4. Broken to upvc patio door frame and rubber seal, which I expect them to pay for repairs. (Suggestion from the window/door engineer is that I claim on my insurance as it's likely that I would have to replace the whole unit).

I made the assumption that if the TA has a clause which highlights obligations to T at the end of the tenancy, then the T should at least attempt to stick to them. I am quite willing to negotiate, but they seem reluctant to engage with me.

Thanks again for the help.

1 = be careful, ASTs should not insist on professional cleaning
2 = have a look at apportionment example here - it's for a carpet, so useful to you - http://www.arla.co.uk/info-guides/property-guides/deposit-protection-guide/betterment-and-apportionment.aspx
3 = absolutely, cost of new bulbs
4 = if you make an insurance claim, you should be able to claim your excess, but it might get murky if you tried to claim anything different

Broken handles and damaged taps are not wear and tear, they are damage.

An Agent wouldn't make the situation any better... probably worse and more of your money would be disappearing.

When you've calculated all your costs I would take a proper look over them and check whether you can assert they're fair - if so, send that detail to the ex-Tenant, indicate you're looking for a compromise solution and this offer from you is very fair. State there and then that if they do not agree then you will apply for ADR as you are comfortable that you have the relevant evidence of the damage that has occurred.

Just as a matter of interest... I go through the check-out procedure while the outgoing Tenants are there, at the end I tell them whether there will be any deductions or not, if there are then I send them a figure for consideration later that evening. Prior to the check-out meeting I have sent them the check-out document that highlights the costs of things like cleaning an oven etc. so they're aware enough of the things they don't want to get hit by.

It can't be 100%, but I've not yet had a really bad one.

Thanks for looking Hippogriff .... I will take it all on board and calculate what I consider a fair and reasonable deduction.

The clause in my TA is for the professional cleaning of carpets only, but the house should have been cleaned prior to them vacating. The reason I say it hasn't been cleaned is partly due to dust, dirt and cobwebs and a pile of brick dust in the corner of the room which has been there since they had a satellite dish installed - 4 years ago! So I didn't think it unreasonable to get a professional in to clean up after the T and charge them accordingly.

Great tip regarding your check-out procedure. Being a first time landlord I didn't have cost information to hand and was unsure whether to tell them there and then of possible deductions without first reading through the observations to ascertain if they were fair ... ah well, you live and learn.

Just one other query. The T modified my garden and I asked them to remove the bricks and gravel they had added. This they have done, sort of. The day after check-out I visited my property and found the bricks the T had used, and other rubbish, in the field behind my garden ... some of the bricks were still in the garden and are identical to those dumped. This field is private property and it is evident that this has come from my property. Am I right to ask the T to remove the rubbish or arrange to have it removed and deducted from their deposit?

The basic premise is that a Tenant should return a property to a Landlord in the same condition it was when the tenancy started - less fair wear and tear.

So you can claim what you want... if it goes to ADR then it will be taken out of your hands anyway.

You mention a tenancy of 5 years, but you do not mention any arrears... sometimes we just have to swallow things and get moving forwards.

If the Tenants have been paying rent to you for 5 years, you will have got rather a lot of money from them... if only £500 per month, then £30,000. If the deposit reflected the rent (of £1,000) then £60,000. Perspective.

Over 5 years you can expect a lot of wear and tear. In addition, it might be a natural time for many things to be replaced to bring the property back up to full spec.. Remember you can't be deducting from the deposit for betterment.

I would just keep your powder dry.

The tenant has to ask the TDS for the deposit. When they do this they get your say.

They have 90 days to do this.

They may never ask for any of the deposit back.

If and when they do, you have a strong case to keep it all. But the TDS will decide this.

Firstly, thanks to all for your help and guidance, it has been much appreciated.

Secondly, my ex-tenants have finally agreed a sum to be deducted from the deposit. Their refusal to discuss any of the observations made me suspect that they would not be willing accept any responsibility for any damage to my property, other than what they considered 'fair wear and tear'. They then employed the services of someone versed in tenancy law. To me, this suggests a T who doesn't want to part with their deposit. So, taking on what Hippogriff said ... perspectives. I only wanted to repair the damage; they didn't want to accept responsibility (and still haven't); the money deducted will help towards repairs, but it will still cost me; at least I don't have to deal with T's I don't get on with now.

As a new LL this has been a (big) learning curve, but one I probably needed. The comments from the person helping the Ts also threw up some queries in the wording of my TA, so next time I will read it with a even finer tooth comb and the landlords rule book, i.e. this forum 

Thanks again.

Good viewpoint. Let them go. Focus on the next Tenants... they're the one who'll be paying you from now on. And it seems like, at least, you got something. Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

First time poster - hello all.

Just read through this post and will be reading through a lot more tonight.

Really interesting read and got some great tips for when I begin my accidental landlord adventure in the next couple of months. Particularly liked documenting the costs of repairs before checking out. It's nice (and honest) for the tenants and they can see up front how much maybe deducted from their deposits should they not repair/replace things as agreed in their contracts.,

Hi Kevano,

I recommend you read as much as possible.  The blog posts on the main site provide real life stories of how to deal with situations and the guides are good aswell.

Hello.

Thanks for the advice, will check it out.

My aim is to do so much preparation I should never need advice!

But, it's good to know if I need it, it's there...

Quote from: kevano22 on May 27, 2015, 09:11:12 PM
Hello.

Thanks for the advice, will check it out.

My aim is to do so much preparation I should never need advice!

But, it's good to know if I need it, it's there...

Fantastic attitude to have.

As long as you know;

How to vet/obtain the best tenants
What to do with the deposit (very very important)
Inventories
Contracts
How to get them out if you need to (section 8 / Section 21)

Landlording is easy with great tenants.  Landlording is difficult with bad tenants.

Fail to plan, plan to fail. If you don't have a plan, you don't have a map. If you don't have a map, you can't find the treasure. Etc. Etc.

I have put so many hours into researching everything I can (tonight I've read almost every part of this site, which is superb BTW).

Looking forward to getting stuck in!

Thanks for replies.