UK Landlord Forum / Life

Have received an enail from the tenants asking for an informal meeting this weekend to discuss things . Does anyone think I should go ?
And what can be gained from this ?

I'm unable to change plans anyway at such short notice that weas planned months in advance and don't see how it would help myself . I will just get more grief about how I should release them from the rent .apparwbtly the third tenant says that I have told her she is allowed to stay !!!

Has anyone any experience w evicting someone on grounds on danger to the property . Eg leaving gas on .  Oven on .
Is this also an additional
Option .

She has said her mental health issues will protect her from all this !

Sounds like she should be sectioned IMHO !

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on February 08, 2019, 03:22:45 PM
apparwbtly the third tenant says that I have told her she is allowed to stay !!!

Well, the statement is not legally incorrect. She has a valid tenancy until it has been mutually surrendered or you legally evict her with bailiffs or HCEOs following a possession order from the court. Of course, they are still liable to pay rent in the mean time.

Sorry to go off at a tangent here, I don't recall mention of HMO, but it seems to me that as the tenants are not a family or one household, should the LL have a HMO license in this property?

I think it only applies as HMO if more than 4 people not of Same household and I only have 3 there

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on February 11, 2019, 12:22:58 PMI think it only applies as HMO if more than 4 people not of Same household and I only have 3 there

https://www.gov.uk/house-in-multiple-occupation-licence

Quote from: Her Majesty's GovernmentFines and penalties
You could get an unlimited fine for renting out an unlicensed HMO.

Maybe it's a tangent, but do be careful with any assumptions (just in case).

When was this changed , ?!
It was always more than 4

I've just done a check on the Council website and it confirms I don't need a licence as 4 or less is fine .  Guess may be different for different councils .

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on February 11, 2019, 12:32:21 PM
When was this changed , ?!
It was always more than 4

It's been 3 on the Government website for as long as I can remember... it distinguishes between HMO and Large HMO there... go with what your Council says, but I just wanted to be sure you weren't ignorantly flouting any laws. We all have come to realise that ignorance is not an excuse. Historically, at least, just because a property was an HMO did not imply it needed a licence, and that's what you'd be concerned with, so always best to check and be sure - instead of asking "when did this change?" 

OP, imho, I really think you need to bite the bullet and meet with your tenants, if nothing else to gain as much information first hand (as opposed to secondhand via your agent) and see exactly what they want, what they expect from you. I see it as a way to best make an informed choice about how to proceed myself. The agents don't care who they get their fees from. But the bottom line is you have a lot (, lot?) more to lose potentially in this scenario than anyone else (possibly put together?). You are never going to get absolute advice here and everyone will always have to make their own choices and do their own due diligence as much as they feel they need.

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on February 11, 2019, 12:38:14 PM
I've just done a check on the Council website and it confirms I don't need a licence as 4 or less is fine .  Guess may be different for different councils .

A "Large HMO" requires mandantory licencing.

Additional licencing covers other HMO in designated areas.

Selective licencing covers all rentals in designated areas.

The definition of Large HMO used to include 3 storey or more, that have been removed. Landlord of all HMO, whether licensable or not, must comply with relevant HMOs regulations.

An update : hurray ! The tenants have all left ! Without eviction notices etc
However .....!  The original end of contract is end of July 2019 but I am willing to let it end of April if all rent is paid up .
April rent still hasn't been paid so they are still liable for the rent till end of July .

The question I would like answered is : apparently the check out inventory can't be done till the end of the contract whenever that will be agreed for .
I want to redecorate and do some remedial repairs but the agents have informed me I shouldn't do this till the contract has been terminated ( hopefully End of April ) but it could drag on if the rent isn't paid !  As taking back possession by doing repair works indicates I have ended the contract and therefore can't chase for rent arrears .

Is this true ??

In effect if this drags on through to deposit disputes ( if I claim for rent via this ) could take ages ... and I want to get the house redone and back on the rental market ASAP !
Any advice please ?

You can't do a Check-Out while a tenancy is ongoing, that's true... it would be pointless. Ideally it would be done on the last day, as they're departing (like the last thing you'd do)... and, just as ideally, they'd be present.

You say that the Tenants have left... have they either provided keys to you, your Agent or posted them through the letterbox or something like that? what you need to decide is whether the property / tenancy has been surrendered to you? Ideally this would take the form of something written down and signed by both parties... but I am thinking it is unlikely you'll get that? Only you can say. However, you can take the route of implied surrender... that would be the return of the keys and the removal of all their stuff, right? The conduct / actions of the Tenants allows you to reasonably imply that the property / tenancy has been surrendered.

You are correct if a fixed term is ongoing, and the Tenant has left, then they're liable for rent until the end of the fixed term... but you, as Landlord, must make reasonable efforts to re-let the property and I suggest this is what you focus on... cutting your losses with these Tenants. From the sound of it, them leaving without having to go over the whole process sounds like a win in its own right.

What you shouldn't consider doing is just going in, doing your work, then doing an Inventory, and trying to claw back money without solid evidence and then end up on the wrong-end of an illegal eviction claim when it turns out the Tenants hadn't really left... they were actually just hiding, or in hospital / prison / visiting relatives abroad.

Everything has gone from the house .ie no tenants or their belongings .
We went to check.
The first two posted their keys to me as the agents refused to take them . The last one left them at the agents but on all occasions nothing was signed .

I will agree to end the tenancy early by 3 months .
That is 30/4/19 if the rent is paid up .
I'm happy to take the deposit in full and move on but the agents said the tenants have to agree on this as well Seems the landlord doesn't have any say in anything anymore !

So if implied surrender is the route to take does that mean the tenancy can be terminated now ?
I am happy to accept that as long as I get April's rent .

If all belongings have been removed and the keys have been returned that should be enough to imply surrender, yes.

The Tenants do not have to agree to Deposit deductions. It is obviously better if they do. But that's the whole point of disputes. If there are rent arrears and you'd like to use the Deposit for that then it's usually possible. The Deposit protection scheme in question will do this kind of thing all the time. It is not correct to say that Landlords do not have any say in anything any more - what you mean is that you are miffed that you, as a Landlord, cannot unilaterally impose your will / decision on others (whether that's right or wrong) who may disagree with you. One thing I am not sure of is whether your tenancy agreement, or the Deposit scheme paperwork, must specifically state that the Deposit can be deducted from for rent arrears.

It could be the case that the Tenant(s) have already decided to take a bath on their Deposit... do you actually know what their position is / might be?

From myDeposits - "Where the dispute concerns rent arrears, account statements and/or bank statements which show arrears outstanding are important; without this sort of evidence the adjudicator will struggle to confirm whether there were any arrears. These should clearly show the property and person to whom the account relates. Where arrears have arisen, it is also useful for the adjudicator to see evidence that the tenant has been told about them, and has been given the chance to comment on them."

From DPS - "Where the dispute concerns rent arrears, rent account statements are important as these show the outstanding arrears. These should clearly show the property and person to whom the account relates, and provide a breakdown of how rent arrears are calculated."

I agree with all your comments ! LOL  and thank you for the feedback re deposits.

Well as far as I know the deposit is still intact. Letter asking for rent arrears to be paid by tenants has gone out and awaiting replies .
Best scenario : they pay up, contract terminated early , check out inventory done, deposit returned minus any charges and we all move on
Worst scenario : they refuse to pay April rent so route taken down deposit dispute route to pay for rent arrears etc. and contract cant be terminated unless implied surrender .... if this is so, can I still chase for the April Rent,?

If worst scenario, will I have to wait till the dispute route has been resolved until I can start remedial works?

I don't understand why you are changing the outcome of "contract terminated early" based on whether they pay April's rent, or not? Are you implying you'll refuse to agree to terminate the contract early if they do not pay? In my mind that's priority one... get the contract terminated early (hopefully agreed by all parties) then the tidying-up starts (both physically at the property and in an admin. sense of the word). Once the tenancy is ended you can chase the arrears, of course... hopefully via the Deposit rather than Court, but it doesn't disappear as a debt if the tenancy ends.

You can begin remedial works when the tenancy is ended. If the dispute will cover damages as well as arrears then you need to document things correctly - again, hopefully all agreed as to what is damage, even if not the amounts or the fact they're valid deductions. You don't have to wait in Limbo for however many weeks / months it might take for a Deposit dispute.

Sorry Im  probably not being clear .
The plan is to end the tenancy as you say ASAP or end of April.
IM sure they will agree to ending it , just the agents have advised not to end it till they have paid up Aprils rent otherwise we re chasing arrears but guess we can chase the April rent via the deposit .
So best plan : agree to end tenancy, check out inventory, which then gives me right to start remedial works while chasing arrears /admin tidy up as a parallel.

Well as expected the two who moved out earlier in the year are refusing to pay April's rent . Moreover they expect to get their full deposit back .

I have checked the agreement and it states that deposit can be used for rent arrears .  Will this have to be done via the dispute service ?

Yup.

Quote from: Hippogriff on April 24, 2019, 08:36:59 AM
The conduct / actions of the Tenants allows you to reasonably imply that the property / tenancy has been surrendered.

An offer of surrender maybe, there's no actual surrender until the landlord accepts it, by i.e. taking action inconsistent with the continuation of the tenancy.

Quote from: Hippogriff on April 24, 2019, 08:36:59 AM
You are correct if a fixed term is ongoing, and the Tenant has left, then they're liable for rent until the end of the fixed term... but you, as Landlord, must make reasonable efforts to re-let the property

The landlord actually doesn't have a duty to mitigate loss of rent by re-letting early. Landlord can choose to either let the tenancy continue until its natural end and sue the tenant for unpaid rent, or accept an early termination and take back possession.

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on April 24, 2019, 09:40:10 AM
Worst scenario : they refuse to pay April rent so route taken down deposit dispute route to pay for rent arrears etc. and contract cant be terminated unless implied surrender .... if this is so, can I still chase for the April Rent,?

Tenancy ends when you take back possession, no more rent is payable from that point forward since no more tenancy.

If by "April rent", you mean the rent that was payable say 1 April for the month of April, then you can just agreed to the implied surrender now and propose the deduction from the deposit. Unless your contract stated otherwise, prepaid rent isn't required to be apportioned and repaid for days after the tenancy ended unless the tenancy ended "as a result of the service of a notice under section 21".

I suggest you have the implied surrender and take back possession, you don't want any of them to decide to move back in without paying rent leaving you having to go to court and evict.

Yep I plan to do that .
The contract does state that the deposit can be used for unpaid rent .
And we will be claiming the rent due from the deposit via the dispute route .

From experience this would be the case or has anyone had any experience otherwise ?
Just want this situation over so can wipe the slate clean ... !

Hello me again !
So everyone has left .
Check out inventory says
1- cleaning is required throughout as indeed it hasn't been done .
2- front garden and back have been left untidy unkempt so that needs sorting .
3-additional items have been left so they require removal

4- repairs to walls damage from nails . And window pane chipped . Etc

I have emailed the tenants who had the cheek to reply and say as 2 of them had left early I should be responsible to have checked the property more often knowing there was only one tenant there !

I have both check in and check out inventories and I will be claiming for the above 4 things plus rent arrears which would come to more than what the full deposit is .

In anyone's experience is it worth taking this to dispute as I suspect the total amount i will claim for will be more than what the full deposit it given that rent for their last month at the house has not been paid .

I am pretty sure they won't agree to release of their deposit despite it saying in the contract that deductions can be made for rent arrears and the usual cleaning etc .

Any advice ?!

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on May 07, 2019, 10:40:38 AM
I have emailed the tenants who had the cheek to reply and say as 2 of them had left early I should be responsible to have checked the property more often knowing there was only one tenant there !

If they're joint tenant (i.e. all on a single contract), then they're all jointly responsible for any damages whether they occurred before or after they have "moved out".

Quote from: #fedupofthis! on May 07, 2019, 10:40:38 AM
In anyone's experience is it worth taking this to dispute as I suspect the total amount i will claim for will be more than what the full deposit it given that rent for their last month at the house has not been paid .

I am pretty sure they won't agree to release of their deposit despite it saying in the contract that deductions can be made for rent arrears and the usual cleaning etc .

If you have it in a custodial scheme, you don't really have much choice. You propose the deduction, they have to agree for it to be released to you, otherwise arbitration or court. If you have it under an insurance scheme, you can tell the tenant why you're withholding it, if they then dispute it with the scheme, you would have to hand over the money and either agree to arbitration or go to court.