UK Landlord Forum / Life

I rent out a house to 3 tenants . All female in 20s . Recently it's been reported to me by twoof the tenants that the other one has mental health issues and have been behaving in a psychotic way . Paranoid ideas . She has had this prob before but no one had been aware of it . Two of the tenants now wish to leave the property as they feel threatened by her but the contract doesn't run out till end of July .
I can't give notice to just the ill one or to all three as it's a fixed contract although the contract says one or all of the tenants can give notice if they find a replacement

Does anyone know if there's a way to get the ill one to leave . She has expressed she doesn't want to but the other two have now started looking for tenant replacements for themselves .
Further questions : should I even accept new tenants knowing they would be Jumping into the fire so to say .  Surely there's a moral duty of care to incoming tenants ? In which case what should I do ?

The agents have given two options . Either all three decide to leave on which case great . Or the two wanting to leave have to find replacements but then should I accept them for reason stated above . ? And if I don't accept the new tenants then would the outgoing tenants be held liable to pay rent till contract is up ?

Any advice greatly appreciated . Am new to all this as never had a prob w tenants before

Can I infer that they are all parties to the same contract?
I am not sure why their age or gender is relevant (clarify if it is).

The agent is correct
If under a fixed term you could agree to surrender the lease but that requires the agreement of all the tenants.
Or the tenants leaving assign the lease to an incoming tenant.

You only accept the two new tenants based on their acceptability as a tenant to you (credit checks etc).  I am not even sure from the post how you know the tenant is behaving in a psychotic way?  It's up to the new tenants and leaving tenants to come to an agreement to assign the lease - not you.

If you do not accept the two new tenants the leaving tenants are liable for the rent (assuming the lease is worded correctly, but technically they might all be severally liable for the full rent (check the agreement)..

Usually I would say don't get involved between tenants and tenants and neighbours but I can see this all going wrong in the near term, so you could indicate the issue will be finding the tenants that left to enforce the agreement against them so the remaining tenant would be liable for the entire rent then (assuming the signatories are jointly and severally liable for the rent(?).

You still don't have a problem with tenants as this doesn't seem to your issue yet but I can see it all going wrong so perhaps in this case it might be better to get in between the tenants and manage this a little pro-actively.

Ahh i guess sex and age isn't relevant . Was just trying to give as much info. As I said new to this forum . Thank you for replying though .
The info I have about the " ill " tenant is all from the other tenants . Via phone calls , texts and emails . Yes I stupidly manage the property but to be fair haven't had any issues till recently .

Yes it's fixed term so if the 2 tenants leave they have to replace with two new tenants who I expect won't be hard to find . But even if they fulfil all the criteria ( credit checks etc ) I wouldn't feel comfortable letting them move in knowing the remaining tenant is apparently psychotic . Don't I have a duty of care to incoming tenants ? Imagine if theyvget attacked then wouldn't it come back to me or the agency as gllettknt then move in knowing they were at risk ?

Can I refuse to let any new tenants move in if I feel it's unsafe for them . The 2 tenants that want to leave could leave physically  but would they still be liable for the rent until the contract is up because theoretically they haven't found a tenant to replace them . Or would I be seen as obstructing the process .

So you don’t actually know about the third tenant? No hospital report etc!
How do you know this isn’t some tiff between the tenants?  Do you have any evidence at all?
If the tenant has threatened the other two tenants then has this been reported to police?

Landlords do have a duty of care to their tenants but this is usually in relation to the state of the property and landlords are not liable for the behaviour of their tenants.

If you have no proof then on what basis are you preventing assignment of the lease?  The agreement will likely state you need to act reasonably wrt to assignment .... would you consider refusal with no proof of an issue as reasonable?

I have assumed that this is not an HMO or house under licensing scheme which would require the landlord to tackle antisocial behaviour.

If you feel strongly you could seek a discretionary eviction for anti social behaviour but this requires proof and eviction is after mediation and demoting the Tenancy which takes ages and costs you money.

If you really want “ill” tenant out then best bet is to explain they are all liable for the full rent individually (check your agreement - you didn’t confirm this is indeed the position?) - most folks don’t understand this - it might be enough for her to move on/agree to surrender the lease

Apparently the GP has medical records of present and previous behaviour . The tenants have reported to their Gp but not police as nothing has happened . They have recordings ( vocal ) but not vid of her behaviour . 
The contract says if only 1-2 leave they are responsible for paying the rent if they don't find a new tenant . The " ill " one won't be liable for the whole rent if they leave .
Will speak to agents again today to see what they say about what happens if I refuse new tenants and who would be liable for rent . Also who is liable if new tenants move in and they get injured !!?

If she becomes seriously threatening to the others,or a risk to herself,they should call the police/mental health team.She would be assessed,and possibly sectioned.However,if it was just a case of getting her medication stabilised (assuming she is being treated) she would be back home quite quickly. The fact that the others have not called the police suggests that they don't actually feel scared? If this person has a job,her employers would be forced to act if colleagues felt she poses a risk.I think you should go round and meet with her,casually.It may be a case of "Two's company" and her face just doesn't fit. I think it would be morally,if not legally,wrong to let 2 others move in until you know more.   

Apparently she is refusing treatment . The GP has told her she needs it but can't force her as she isn't at the stage of needing sectioning .
From my point of view I just need to know what I can do as a landlord . I'm not her social worker or GP and I've spoken to legal advice and they advised I need to maintain stance as a landlord and not get involved w anything personal .  Sigh !

This last angle would be my own advice too. You have stated yourself that you are not a parent, social worker or carer - it's absolutely true. Keep to the legalities of it all. If any Tenant moves out and they're allowed to find a replacement - let them do that - but ensure the potential incoming Tenant is very well aware of the current situation. Then the problem is likely solved by virtue of the fact that the incoming Tenant would run for the hills and the existing Tenant(s) remains liable until end of contract - when all 3 can, hopefully, depart without issue.

Only a crazy person would move in with another crazy person... if it does come to pass you have a whole new type of burgeoning business (probably one you can charge more for). What you cannot do is allow any outgoing Tenant to sell incoming Tenant a lemon, or throw them a hospital pass... likewise, you cannot do said same with a clear conscience, which I think you have a good handle on.

Thank you all for your input . 
You have confirmed my thoughts and plan .
I will definitely speak to any prospective tenants so they are fully aware of the situation and will have it in writing as well .

Quote from: DrHoney on January 21, 2019, 12:22:34 PM
I will definitely speak to any prospective tenants so they are fully aware of the situation and will have it in writing as well .

Beware of contravening data protection legislation. A person's medical details are just about as personal as personal information gets!

Surely informing prospective tenants about an experience  of a situation in a property is not divulging someone's personal details / we wouldn't be sayibg they have had psychotic episodes or labelling them as crazy . Just saying what has been going on in a household .

It depends if you actually have any “data”.
To me it doesn’t sound like you do?
Am not clear as to how you know the GP has records on this person?
If you stick to just the observations in the house (and these are not yours it would seem?) then maybe you are OK. 

But you are going to have two really pissed off tenants (the 2 trying to get out) - you are in effect trapping them to stay by torpedoing their rights to assign and forcing a rent claim (Your first post you asked if the outgoing were still be liable for the rent - not many folk can afford two rents).

So does your moral duty (??) to the incoming tenants supersede your duty to the tenants that are still there?  What happens if they get attacked? What if they leave anyway because you frustrated their assignment rights - does that undermine your claim?

That’s why you got legal advice to not get involved/I was indicating a better course is to get the ill person to move on - but then does moral duty extend to telling the next landlord about her condition etc etc etc

(morality is not something I feel qualified to comment).

The road to hell is paved.....

I always feel qualified to comment on morality... or what I consider common sense.

I think if we start out by making the presumption that the Landlord should not lose-out by effectively intentionally creating a situation where they have 33% of the rent due to them coming in we'll arrive at a sensible conclusion. I make this presumption because the problems they have encountered are no fault of their own... therefore they should not suffer (they should also not be involved, but that's another matter). I take that a bit further because there seems very little actual evidence of anything, really, here too - it's emails, calls and texts (containing reports of what other parties are doing, and have done... I think Judge Judy calls this hearsay and ignores it). This could be girls ganging-up on one another and bringing about those feelings of paranoia (whether real or made-up). I don't know. I doubt the Landlord really knows. The Landlord cannot morally let the property to other Tenants while the 'problem' Tenant still resides there, not without telling them about the problem (which itself is also kinda dodgy) - so the only real solution is to tough it out (I mean all parties) and maintain the status quo... until end of contract. If the other Tenants really want to leave enough, then they'll leave, but it shouldn't remove them from their obligations (obviously) regarding rent and if they are smart enough (devious enough?) to find a replacement Tenant who'll go into it with open eyes - all cool... but it all seems very unlikely. And the months pass by really quickly.

Quote from: DrHoney on January 21, 2019, 10:51:43 PMJust saying what has been going on in a household .

Possibly the point is that you don't really know. Three was never the magic number...

The past, the present, the future
Faith, and hope and charity
The heart, the brain, the body
Will give you three
It's a magic number

It's correct in that All I know about the " ill " tenant is from communication between me , the 2 tenants who want to leave , the agents and what I have been told by them . It's a catch 22 because I won't get more info unless I get more involved and I've been advised not to .

I agree with all that's been said .
The ill tenant will not move it seems . Agents also said she has a right to say who she does / does not want to live with so if she refuses any prospective new tenants status quo will remain and the other 2 tenants are ( quite correctly noted by a previous poster ) trapped .
As for providing a reference for any future landlord ... will worry about that when it is needed ....

Let's see how this unfolds .

I have seen this mentioned a few times on this forum,that someone leaving a shared house has to find their replacement.Presumably the landlord still meets the prospective person,and holds the right to refuse? Who actually chose this young woman, did the landlord have reservations about her mental state?  Are the other two so upset that they are determined to leave? If not, they can surely put up with it for a bit longer? Quite a lot of people have psychotic episodes,but many are essentially harmless. 

The tenancy contract works on a rolling basis in that when a tenant wants to leave they are required to find someone to take over their rent and lease till the end of that lease . The young lady in question was therefore " chosen " by a previous outgoing tenant . The credentials were checked , and as long as they pass those ,the landlord usually does not see any reason to refuse them as a new tenant and does not need to meet them as that's the agency to do so no I had no concerns about her mental state until I was informed by the 2 tenants that wish to leave . And apparently are so upset they are determined to .

Apparently 25 percent of the general population have some form of mental illness !

Essentially harmless is how I would like to be remembered.

Essential Harmlessness can be a good thing.  Essential even ? 

I think I must have been having a psychotic episode when I decided to get into BTL.

Sigh . An update ...
Have an email from one of the tenants concerned mother and a phone call from parents of the other tenant who wishes to leave .
It is obvious that they wish for the tenants to leave when they can and not pay going forward meaning that I am left out of pocket .
They said it was not right that new people would be allowed to move into a situation with the " ill " tenant but it was right for me to allow current tenants to leave without any consequences of essentially breaking the contract !
Any suggestions ?

Did they sign the contract with you?

Irrelevant, nosey, third parties, surely?

Just a quick update in case I have missed anything .
The ill tenant is now advertising for new housemates . Apparently she will be telling any prospective new tenants about her issues so I guess the outgoing ones are passing it onto her decision.
I will still be making sure any incoming tenant is aware of the house situation myself and in any case a short term let till July will put people off .
Have I missed anything out ? TIA