UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hello All
Can someone please advise me on landlord/tenants rights
3 weeks ago a tenant moved into my property paying me a months rent and deposit by cheque, the check bounced!
So I have received no money and I have not given him a tenancy agreement.
He has moved his girlfriend in and pets!

I want to change the locks and dump his belonging on the drive!

Have you communcated the fact that you have not received payments ?

Does he think he has paid you ?

He knows the cheque bounced and just said sorry I have no money!

I understand that if he has paid nothing and has no tenancy agreement I can remove him?

No, you can't remove him, unfortunately. You will now need to wait until he is 2 months in arrears before you can begin the evicting process.

As soon as you gave him a key and let him into the property, he legally became a tenant. A tenancy doesn't need to be created by a written contract, a verbal agreement is enough (which is what you have).

He now has tenant rights.

I hate to say it (because it's the last thing you'll want to hear), but allowing a tenant to move in before a cheque clears is pretty careless/irresponsible.

Quote from: Debbie on October 14, 2014, 01:40:19 PM
He knows the cheque bounced and just said sorry I have no money!

He clearly knew what he was doing and he prayed on your naivety. He knew he would have rights as soon as you gave him the keys, which would give him several months accommodation.

You genuinely have to sit back and wait now...

It's a real tough/horrible situation.

How does he have rights without paying anything! That is so wrong.
If I go ahead with my plan to change the locks what can he do about that?

hmm well, you allowed him entry without paying anything, which is just as odd (from a neutral standpoint).

If you change the locks he can prosecute you, you will most likely be fined, and he will be allowed back into the property... because he's legally a tenant, he's not squatting. You gave him permission to enter.

Thank you for your advise, was not really what I wanted to hear!
How do I stand with the girlfriend he has moved in?  as I let 4 rooms to 4 tenants so she makes that 5 and I am not HMO registered?

Quote from: Debbie on October 14, 2014, 02:01:57 PMIf I go ahead with my plan to change the locks what can he do about that?

You can get prosecuted for illegal eviction and could be sent to prison and / or suffer an unlimited fine. The Tenant can also obtain Legal Aid, if necessary.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/eviction/harassment_and_illegal_eviction_by_landlord/illegal_eviction

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/eviction/harassment_and_illegal_eviction_by_landlord

Be careful. I'd advise you play it by the book... you will get the Tenant out, but why on earth you handed over keys without seeing cleared funds in your account is very worrying (for you).

I wont make the same mistake again!
I have found out since that he does this all the time! Why he still has rights beats me.
I have been both a tenant and a landlord so I agree things have to be in place to protect both sides.
I do not feel protected at all.

Quote from: Debbie on October 14, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
I do not feel protected at all.

I wouldn't feel protected if I walked through the roughest part of the Broncs calling all the black people I saw "Stupid N Words" I'd probably get killed very quickly.  But I'd be stupid to do that wouldn't I? 

You need to afford your own protection in this world, no signed contract and no money doesn't sound like much protection for yourself.

Nowhere takes a cheque for anything nowadays, not even £10 worth of petrol, you must realise why they do this?

Best of luck to you, you certainly sound like you need it.  I presume you didn't do any referencing of these people?

Quote from: Debbie on October 14, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
I wont make the same mistake again!

I'm not a fan of estate agents but you sound like you need to had over your property for one to look after to protect you from yourself.

Sorry this all seems like harsh words but I can't believe what I'm reading and you feel wronged.

As already said DO NOT CHANGE THE LOCKS AND DO AN ILLEGAL EVICTION if they've done this before they would probably love you to do that so that they can claim more money from you.

Have you let the utility companies know who is at the property and taken meter readings?  I seriously doubt these type of people will be paying their utility bills.

It's a shared house and I pay the bills, I am new to this and admit I have a lot to learn.
This was not something I planned to do, basically it went like this
I left my marriage
Rented a house (in full time work)
Ater the divorce I had my house back (oct 13)
Had an accident (broke my hip oct 13)
Could not move back into the house (due to benefits I received not covering the bills)
Moved in with a friend 70 miles away awaiting a hip replacement.
Had to rent my house to keep me.
My mum died 8 weeks ago, was not thinking or coping well.
Got took for mug when I was at most vulnerable.

Ouch, bad run of luck. Sorry to hear all that.

The fact it's a shared house is kind of a relief, because it means you're only losing rent for a room, not the entire house.

If I were you, I would probably contact an eviction specialist and allow them to take care of the process for you. They'll move as quickly as possible for you.

Does it make a difference that I still have one room that I use when I visit the area? I return at the weekend to be with my dad.
Is there anything I can do about his girlfriend who he moved in?

Hmm if that's the case, your tenants *might* not actually be tenants, but actually lodgers. If so, the lodger will have less rights and you can get rid of him a lot quicker.

I'm not actually positive. if you can class it as your main residency, I think they might be lodgers, but I'm not sure.

Thank you for the glimmer of hope, I do keep my things there, but stay with my friend in the week due to the stairs in the property, my room is downstairs but the bathroom is upstairs. I cannot drive at the moment so I only get down at weekends when my friend is not woking.

Quote from: Debbie on October 14, 2014, 05:22:19 PM
Thank you for the glimmer of hope, I do keep my things there, but stay with my friend in the week due to the stairs in the property, my room is downstairs but the bathroom is upstairs. I cannot drive at the moment so I only get down at weekends when my friend is not woking.

Did you supply the t with an AST that they haven't signed?  If no you might be able to work the lodger angle.  I suggest a call to shelter.

Quote from: Riptide on October 14, 2014, 07:37:07 PM

Did you supply the t with an AST that they haven't signed?

I don't think it would matter either way, because the AST wouldn't be valid. A landlord can't live with a tenant...

There are some interesting/relevant comments left in the following post: http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/tenant-paid-deposit-didnt-move/

But to save you from looking through it, the following is said:


Trainee_LL  said the following: But in this case there cannot be an AST in place, because the Housing Act 1988 has a specific exclusion for tenancies with a live-in landlord (see: http://www.lodgerlandlord.co.uk/2010/04/06/do-deposits-from-lodgers-need-to-be-protected/ ). What the 'tenant' has in this case is probably an 'excluded tenancy' or an 'excluded license', and that means the eviction procedure changes – for example Section 21 won't apply. I say "probably" because it depends on the details of the agreement between the landlord and the tenant/lodger.

Mandy said the following: Trainee landlord is correct insofar as the "tenant" is in fact most likely a licensee - it doesn't matter if a paper AST has been drawn up - the law will override.

If this is the case, it's quite easy. The lodger simply has the protection (under consumer law) of the contract she signed. Therefore, I would advise Liz to serve one month's notice on her - please see this link for more detail on lodger notice periods http://www.lodgersite.com/Serving_Notice_and_Eviction_Notice_Periods.html.

Live in landlords can just give "reasonable notice" to licensees (without having to specify a reason), but this is down to interpretation - as one month is the standard, this is normally considered more than reasonable in this situation; this was the advice I was given by Giles Peake, solicitor with Anthony Gold, when I double checked this area with him.


So *if* he is a lodger, you can just give him one months's notice!

On that note, I would definitely advise talking to Mandy from http://www.lodgersite.com/. She knows her stuff and should be able to give you a definitive answer on your tenants/lodgers status.

Hi Debbie,

I asked Mandy over Twitter, and she said the following: "If can prove main home, occupants lodgers, not tenants (http://www.lodgersite.com/What_is_a_Lodger.html)

"I would suggest she gives lodger 1 month's notice if rent arrears only problem. Is area subject to additional licensing?"

From one of the posts I read the Landlord does not reside in the house . If the landlord is not resident the bouncer of the cheque cannot be a lodger.
In which case the previous posts re sect 21 are correct. To do anything else the landlord runs the real risk of prosecution. We see this more often than many might think unfortunately for the landlords, but we do get the required result albeit after required notice and application for PO.

Quote from: EvictionGroup on October 15, 2014, 05:30:31 PM
From one of the posts I read the Landlord does not reside in the house . If the landlord is not resident the bouncer of the cheque cannot be a lodger.
In which case the previous posts re sect 21 are correct. To do anything else the landlord runs the real risk of prosecution. We see this more often than many might think unfortunately for the landlords, but we do get the required result albeit after required notice and application for PO.

She said she's currently staying with a friend while she waits for a hip operation, but the rented home was her primary home. She still has a room at the property, but only stays there at the weekends to visit her father. So I still think she has a chance for claiming at as her primary residence.

If the occupant is a tenant, I would serve a S21 now and then a S8 when the tenant falls 2 months in arrears.

Quote from: propertyfag on October 15, 2014, 05:41:09 PMSo I still think she has a chance for claiming at as her primary residence.

Yes, but it's not as clear-cut as we'd all like, to be giving advice about bootin' 'em out!

Surely primary residence = where you are on the elctoral role, driving licence and bank/financial addresses?  She's said she's paying the utilities so they're all in he name aswell.

I agree with all that... but you want it to be clear-cut so there is no chance of comeback. If it's an address of convenience, for some reason, like... maybe the Rent-a-Room scheme or summat (picking things from the air now, realise it's not applicable here)... then a savvy Tenant could confuse things and challenge it.

If definitely a Lodger then chance of changing locks when they're out and leaving the belongings for collection by the front door. No need to offer a month's notice or anything like that. We might be talking about the art of the possible...

...I read earlier that the OP said they have a room reserved for when "they visit the area" which did not sound like their main residence to me.

I'd just urge caution.