UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi there,

My wife recently set-up a petition to rid the 3% stamp duty on residential properties. This has made our situation a nightmare given we are an accidental landlord with property in the North and have moved down South for family reasons. Currently still living with my wifes parents with 2 young kids a year later all because we have the save that much more for the stamp duty. Doesn't seem fair does it.

It would be awesome if you could sign the petition below and encourage the Chancellor to scrap this unfair stamp duty on people buying a house to live in.

https://www.change.org/p/philip-hammond-get-rid-of-unfair-stamp-duty-on-second-homes

Many Thanks!

Matt

Matt, you'll understand that not everyone will agree with your position. If you don't want a second property the solution is somewhat simple. If you do, then you'll keep it and pay the tax that is due... as you must.

Hi Hippogriff,

That's a fairly simplistic way of looking at the situation!

I would encourage you to read the petition first before passing judgement. I'd also suggest you read the comments of others that are under similar circumstances. I'm not at all against the tax on BTL what I am against is the unfair element of this tax eg: taxing those who want to buy a house as their main residence.

In addition to this, if I was to sell given the positive income I've generated from these properties I would not be able to buy a bigger property as the banks would only lend less as there is less income coming in from ourselves which by definition and hence the reason my wife has set up the petition not fair on people wanting to purchase property for the purpose of it being our main residence, especially when the home owner is moving from one side of the country to the other.

Make no mistake, this is a tax on the aspirational middle class which is so evident when if you set up a company and own 15 properties the company is excepmt from the Stamp Duty? Really is this Government for real? Meanwhile cashed up foregin property investors are still flocking into the coutnry outbidding locals and driving property prices up even further in some places. A more sensible approach would be to tax said foregin property owners a % annual tax as maintenance, irrespective if it's an individual or a company, especially non residence.

Oh, I understand, you think that because I disagree with you that I've not bothered to read the petition or the comments? I have.

It's not like the change was introduced by the back door, under the covers, in a sneaky way... it was announced with a big fanfare - you had time to prepare yourselves - you didn't bother to do anything. Now it's causing you trouble - maybe you should've prepared better?

If you don't want to pay the extra 3% kicker, then don't have >1 property - it's really simple. You say you're an accidental Landlord (apart from that being a concept that doesn't even exist) but that means you don't want to be a Landlord... so don't be. The text below and in the petition implies that you have 2 properties let out... that's not fulfilling the concept of what an accidental Landlord is - that's just you being a Landlord. Sheesh.

I read one of the top comments on the petition, just - "It's unfair" - now that's some well thought-out support you have there. Anyone will sign anything these days... everyone's happy to rail against something. Instead of a petition why don't you set up a crowd-funded campaign where people will put their money where their mouths are to fund a legal challenge? See how much support you get then.

Stop whining, get on with your life. I won't be supporting your petition because I don't support your position. Please accept that others will have a very different view to you. The world is way too full of moaners. You want to buy another house - great - save up more. Problem solved.

I've provided you with various solutions to your problem - I bet you'd prefer to have another whine.

Solution 3 - raise the rents on your 2 let properties to absorb the 'cost'. Modest amounts won't cause people to up-and-leave and, even if they do, it's a Landlord's market out there.

I have accidentally been forced up into the 20% income tax bracket because my employer has given me a pay rise.

I think having to pay tax is unfair. 

It would be awesome [or put your own hoorrendous Americanism here] if you could support my cause and sign my petition.

Tax doesn't have to be taxing.

Apparently.

@Hippogriff I respect that we don't agree on this topic but seriously do you really like paying tax? Or are you one of those lucky landlords sitting in your ivory tower that are exempt from this regressive tax because you are fortunate enough to own over 15 properties??

Another thing.... By the looks of your bio you live in Yorkshire where the cost of living is far cheaper than that of London so any of your comments are going to be without understanding one's financial position and fairly simplistic at best. If we were in Yorkshire looking to buy again, mate I'd accept that I'd have to suck up the tax but here in the South property prices are massive! I'm not saying scrap the tax altogether, just not on people looking to buy their main residence simple as that!

We moved down here from the North due to family reasons and the fact there are more jobs available in my trade than the rest of the country combined: Unfortunately that also carries significant financial burden on the family, nurseries, transport and housing are expensive to the point it doesn't make sense to be a 2 income family was my wife would be paying for the privilege of work? The income from the 2 properties provides an income for my wife to ease the cost or raising the children. If we sell the properties this will mean that the income would normally receive would be gone, and in all calculations that we did we would be in a similar financial position before we sold. That doesn't sound very progressive does it??

Most recent property purchased in July this year, £102,000 so around £3,000 extra SDLT. I paid it. It's what I need to do, it's the law. I don't waste my time moaning about it. Your petition is going nowhere, I guarantee it. Look at the other solutions for yourself that I suggested. You're not an unwilling or accidental Landlord - you're just a Landlord, a person who owns more than 1 property.

Seems like you want to compare chalk from cheese!

£102,000, aww that's cute. I bet that a) you're not planning to live in that house and b) the house was based in the North so yeah you're liable to the extra 3%.

Now look at the South. We are looking at buying a property around £300,000 where the stamp duty is normally about £5,000... fair enough I'll pay that....  but then throw in an extra 3% to that total and you'll look at £14,000 on a property that is going to be our main residence, surely you're not saying that the extra £14,000 is fair are you?

Yes, of course it's fair - you have >1 property - the tax is intended to cool down that market (do you not think every single Landlord out there would be pretending their next purchase was one they'd live in?)... you're just having a gripe and moan because you don't think it's fair on you. It's distasteful to be honest. Pay your tax.

Or sell your other properties so this purchase will be the single property you own. It's not that hard. You want your cake, plus you want to eat that cake.

Quote from: mattbeks on September 26, 2016, 08:17:18 AM£102,000, aww that's cute. I bet that a) you're not planning to live in that house and b) the house was based in the North so yeah you're liable to the extra 3%.

I was not trying to compare chalk and cheese, but let you know that I'm not sat in my "ivory tower" avoiding this tax by virtue of having enough properties. No, I'm sat down a coal mine, looking upwards to the light, thinking that I don't want to pay the additional tax... but accepting that I must. I'm not trying to avoid it - by hook or by crook, like you seem to wish you could.

SDLT is an interesting tax in that it's almost impossible to evade or avoid... it's taken as part of the transaction, so you really have no choice unless you take my advice... sell up your other properties, or recoup the funds via other means. Otherwise it's unavoidable.

A change of Minister can easily result in a change of policy... we all know that... so I actually wish your petition well - but I think it will be ineffectual.

I have read these comments with interest. HIPPOGRIFF is basically saying that he doesn't like paying the 3%, though is willing to on a £102,000 property. It appears that MATTBEKS would also be willing to pay it on a property of that price, but where he lives there are no properties that cheap, and he can't afford it on a property of £300,000 (fair enough - it is comparing stamp duty of £3000 to that of £14,000 - a massive dent to any deposit I imagine).

HIPPOGRAFF then goes on to say, and I quote:

"A change of Minister can easily result in a change of policy... we all know that... so I actually wish your petition well - but I think it will be ineffectual."

So I am baffled about the arguments you make - if you hope the policy is changed, surely you would agree and sign it, although as you say you have put up with it and paid it for now. In all honesty in the situation of having to buy and pay in on a £300,000 home - don't tell me you wouldn't be struggling too!

I wish everyone well in most regards.

Except tax evaders.

It was a pithy bit of text to ensure mattbeks knows I hold no ill-will against the position or person... nowhere do I say I hope the policy is changed. Maybe you like to misquote people as par for the course? Changing "I wish your petition well" to "I hope the policy is changed" is the trap many of the worst kind of gutter-type reporters fall into. Maybe you just did it in your head, but actually you tried to get it down into writing. Shame on you. I call you out.

But, to be blunt, I do not care one jot about the problems that a person has which are of their own making. mattbeks has solutions - mattbeks is just unwilling to move them forward and would prefer to have a good old moan about how unfair life is. I wouldn't sign this petition for any reason as I'm happy with the state of affairs. Everything mattbeks is banging on about has a potential resolution. It's "la-la, I'm not listening" all over I'm afraid.

Thank you for your input, though... if you read it back you'll see that you added no value. Question for you -  are you an imbecile? I have suspicions...

Quote from: kferg on September 26, 2016, 07:28:20 PMSo I am baffled about the arguments you make - if you hope the policy is changed, surely you would agree and sign it, although as you say you have put up with it and paid it for now. In all honesty in the situation of having to buy and pay in on a £300,000 home - don't tell me you wouldn't be struggling too!

I imagine that you are perpetually baffled.

I haven't "put up with it", I've paid the extra SDLT kicker because that's the law at the time of my purchase. I was aware of it before I made the offer and before the transaction progressed and knew about the extra money I'd need to shunt to my Conveyancer upon completion. It wasn't new news to me. I was able to be prepared.

I would not struggle to pay the SDLT kicker on a property costing £300,000... because - unlike the OP - it would not seem to come as a complete surprise to me. Therefore I would have known about this kicker prior to viewing properties in this price range, prior to making an offer (probably taking this SDLT kicker into account) and prior to completing.

It's not hard. The tax is not a sneak tax. It doesn't jump out at you and yell - "boo!"

If you can't afford the SDLT you can't afford the property - simple as that. Lower your expectations instead. Find other ways of getting the money. Or - as I've repeatedly stated (but, for an 'accidental' Landlord we seem to have a person here who wants to hold onto that role) sell your other properties so the tax doesn't apply to you.

Accidental Landlords (conceptually) would have 1 property let out. The OP mentions >1 on numerous occasions... that's not an accident, that's just very poor management.

Quote from: Hippogriff on September 27, 2016, 06:25:20 AMAccidental Landlords (conceptually) would have 1 property let out. The OP mentions >1 on numerous occasions... that's not an accident, that's just very poor management.

Actually, let's be honest with ourselves, shall we?

The OP is not an accidental Landlord.

The OP is not an incompetent person who's somehow ended up with >1 properties let out.

The OP is just a Landlord.

The OP wants to avoid paying some tax. There are ways and means.

Quote from: mattbeks on September 25, 2016, 04:05:20 PM
By the looks of your bio you live in Yorkshire where the cost of living is far cheaper than that of London

Yes property is much more expensive. But the cost of living is about the same actually. 
So what you really mean, is that property is cheaper in Yorkshire than it is in London.  Yup.

HIPPOGRIFF you appear to be a nasty piece of work:

Question for you -  are you an imbecile? I have suspicions...

You appear to be nothing but a bully with too much time on your hands that you have to post nasty comments like that (and the rest) on forums. Lucky you. And lucky you able to afford your house up north. No doubt with your family around to support you too.

Good luck in life - with an attitude such as yours, you'll need it. My comments were made as questions from your post - but attacking me as you do serves no purpose except prove you to be a nasty bully with an attitude problem. Go enjoy your £103,000 house and stop picking on people trying to better themselves.

Quote from: Martha on September 27, 2016, 12:20:10 PM

Quote from: mattbeks on September 25, 2016, 04:05:20 PM
By the looks of your bio you live in Yorkshire where the cost of living is far cheaper than that of London

Yes property is much more expensive. But the cost of living is about the same actually. 
So what you really mean, is that property is cheaper in Yorkshire than it is in London.  Yup.

Martha I think you'll find certain aspects are similar, but do you have children? Childcare is about twice as much. Hair dressers, gym memberships etc. All far cheaper in the north. Supermarkets - yes food tends to be the same price, I'll give you that

Quote from: kferg on September 27, 2016, 01:24:38 PM

Quote from: Martha on September 27, 2016, 12:20:10 PM

Quote from: mattbeks on September 25, 2016, 04:05:20 PM
By the looks of your bio you live in Yorkshire where the cost of living is far cheaper than that of London

Yes property is much more expensive. But the cost of living is about the same actually. 
So what you really mean, is that property is cheaper in Yorkshire than it is in London.  Yup.

Martha I think you'll find certain aspects are similar, but do you have children? Childcare is about twice as much. Hair dressers, gym memberships etc. All far cheaper in the north. Supermarkets - yes food tends to be the same price, I'll give you that

No, never used childcare, but actually the cost of gyms and golf memberships ( I have subscribed to both in both parts of the country) and the like are not that far apart in my experience.   As you point out, supermarkets are more or less identical.  Fuel can often be more expensive outside the cities too.

No, never used childcare, but actually the cost of gyms and golf memberships ( I have subscribed to both in both parts of the country) and the like are not that far apart in my experience.   As you point out, supermarkets are more or less identical.  Fuel can often be more expensive outside the cities too.
[/quote]

Fuel is more expensive down south yes! Gym memberships depend on the gym - council gyms up north are cheaper than down south, and tend to be the cheapest options as they are subsidised by the government. Private gyms may be similarly priced. Childcare can be as cheap as £30 a day in some places up north, down south you can pay £70 a day, more even! Again it is a lottery on the area but the most I've seen it up north is £45, though not saying there aren't places that charge more, but that was a quite exclusive area which included famous people's kids.

Jeez, talk about an emotional story.  You could have warned me before I read the petition plea.

QuoteAs an "accidental" landlord myself.......................with the plan that we would add our recent northern home to our rental portfolio

Accidental but A. Have a 'portfolio' B. Want to add to the 'portfolio'  You seem to want your cake and eat it.  Sell the other properties, but you say "I can't the value is too low as I paid too much and I need to buy another one now as the price of the ones I want will go up"

You've not got sympathy from me unfortunately. 

You're moaning about an extra 10k stamp duty it will be more the longer you wait to buy, if you're waiting for the tax rules to be repealed I fear your children might be in university by then.

A justgiving page might yield better results you could put in the pre amble that you only have 2 houses at the moment and need a third ad that 'it's not fair'

Quote from: kferg on September 27, 2016, 03:17:09 PM

Fuel is more expensive down south yes!

You're talking rubbish - from the AA - "The South East has recorded the highest price for unleaded at 110.7 p/litre. The North has recorded the lowest price for unleaded at 109.5 p/litre. East Anglia has recorded the highest diesel price at 111.8 p/litre. Northern Ireland has the cheapest diesel at 110.0 p/litre."

1.2ppl - 

Remove

Quote from: kferg on September 27, 2016, 03:17:09 PM


No, never used childcare, but actually the cost of gyms and golf memberships ( I have subscribed to both in both parts of the country) and the like are not that far apart in my experience.   As you point out, supermarkets are more or less identical.  Fuel can often be more expensive outside the cities too.

Fuel is more expensive down south yes! Gym memberships depend on the gym - council gyms up north are cheaper than down south, and tend to be the cheapest options as they are subsidised by the government. Private gyms may be similarly priced. Childcare can be as cheap as £30 a day in some places up north, down south you can pay £70 a day, more even! Again it is a lottery on the area but the most I've seen it up north is £45, though not saying there aren't places that charge more, but that was a quite exclusive area which included famous people's kids.
[/quote]

Please dont let facts get in the way of a good debate :-)
The differrence in livings costs is very marginal if you exclude property.
Your throw away line on fuel is nonsense.

Quote from: kferg on September 27, 2016, 01:21:58 PM
HIPPOGRIFF you appear to be a nasty piece of work:

Question for you -  are you an imbecile? I have suspicions...

You appear to be nothing but a bully with too much time on your hands that you have to post nasty comments like that (and the rest) on forums. Lucky you. And lucky you able to afford your house up north. No doubt with your family around to support you too.

Good luck in life - with an attitude such as yours, you'll need it. My comments were made as questions from your post - but attacking me as you do serves no purpose except prove you to be a nasty bully with an attitude problem. Go enjoy your £103,000 house and stop picking on people trying to better themselves.

Sorry, but I just don't have much time to spend with (or on) idiots, like yourself. Your further comments on this thread have proven my suspicions. I now feel vindicated that you are - indeed - a bit of a numptie. Don't worry - you're not alone out there.

I am not picking on people trying to better themselves - I am trying to stop tax avoiders and tax evaders from avoiding and evading tax. You should be applauding me, not castigating me. The OP is obviously a professional Landlord with a desire to increase their property empire... despite their claims. I encourage this wholeheartedly, but when you do that you need to pay the tax that the law says is due. It's not a tricky situation.

Now, please don't get me wrong... I do think this tax greys the area between your business and your home life / aspirations in an uncomfortable way, but that doesn't mean because I don't like it then I'm going to try and avoid it. I paid my SDLT kicker recently (on a property I'm letting out BTW). I'd rather not have done, but I am grown-up enough to realise I could not avoid it. Other comments included "having your cake and eating it" that is very simply what is going on here. I think the OP expected everyone to jump onto their side - "oh, all these Landlords will agree and sign my petition" - while we may agree (or may not) we might not agree that a petition is the way to change things. I, for one, very much encourage people to improve themselves, but I am very much against people 'playing' in this field - because, sadly, it creates an entire army of semi-professional Landlords who aren't earning enough from the overall venture to put enough effort into doing things right. Doing things right is very important, to me. Paying the tax that is due - no more, no less - is important to me too.

Landlords are difficult to herd into associations and petitions and suchlike... as a group we're individuals, we don't like being told what to do, we don't like people interfering (that much). The petition will go nowhere.

The approaches for the OP are clearly outlined:

Sell the property empire and don't be in line for the SDLT kicker.
Swallow the extra SDLT kicker... accept it... become 'one' with it.
Increase rents on the properties that are let to offset the impact.

Quote from: Riptide on September 27, 2016, 11:27:43 PMA justgiving page might yield better results you could put in the pre amble that you only have 2 houses at the moment and need a third ad that 'it's not fair'

Great Scott, Riptide, don't give the OP ideas like that!!! I can already see the link forming in front of my eyes... "Please donate generously!"

I particularly liked the part of the petition text where the OP says they don't want to sell the properties they let out as it would make the Tenants homeless.

The OP is obviously a philanthropist.

QuotePlease dont let facts get in the way of a good debate :-)
The differrence in livings costs is very marginal if you exclude property.
Your throw away line on fuel is nonsense.

You said it, not me! I was just agreeing!

Childcare is hugely different - this is from experience. You need to earn £40,000 just to break even if you have two kids!

@Hippogriff wow for someone who doesn't have much time to spend with (or on) idiots you do seem quite detailed in your response. God knows how detailed you'd go if you did have time for someone but given the time of posting generally being during normal business hours you do seem to be a person of leisure so I guess you're not as time poor as you claim to be!

Right let's put a few things straight here... you are still comparing your cute little £102,000 BTL property which you paid £3,000 in Stamp Duty compared to a £300,000 property purchase with the intention of said property being the main residence. A very different situation to your little £102,000 property. I'll reiterate you are simply comparing chalk and cheese here.

Like I have been saying all this long, I am challenging the fairness of this tax on people intending to purchase a house as their main residence. On a £300K property I am looking at roughly £13,000 in Stamp Duty. which is a significant amount of money to pay on a house purchase, hence the petition being created. As for any claims from yourself that I am just having a whinge, well at least my wife and myself are proactively doing something about the tax which would be a significant financial burden. If you were in my shoes I'm sure you would do the same if you were true to yourself.

Now onto your fascination of "Tax Evasion". I can only think that you learned this phrase while reading a simplistic tabloid like The Sun where journalists use this phrase liberally to create moral panics around this topic. With that in mind, I'm worried you don't know what Tax Evasion really is so I thought I might enlighten you:

For your reference here is some information on Tax Evasion for you to read before coming back to me with your typical simplistic reply:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxevasion.asp

As you can see from this link Tax Evasion is an illegal practise. I'm not advocating for breaking the law, what I am lobbying is to change the law which is alot more than what you are doing. As for "Tax Avoidance" the other moral panic buzzword you want to brand about the place well that's the practise where you are minimising your tax legally.. As the great Kerry Packer once said "there's nothing wrong with trying to minimise your tax, if you're not minimising your tax you need to get your head looked at because the Government isn't spending it wisely!"

Seems like what you need here is a Thesaurus... in case you don't know what that is, get a dictionary and work your way forward!

But it does seem that you're keen to pay your tax. I'm sure the government won't turn a random cheque from yourself if you wanted to add more money to the exchequer voluntarily. As as you put it "please donate generously"... Hell, you could always set up a JustGiving page or something like that.