UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi,

Newbie here, found this site based on some research i have recently been doing due to an issue that has risen.

Sorry for the long post.

I have had a tenant (my first - i'm an 'accidental landlord') for about the last 9 months.  The 6 month tenancy finished at the end of December 2016, however, he has stayed at the property and not signed a new tenancy agreement.  I took a deposit, and protected it (one months rent amount).

He lives there with his partner and a young child.

The house was in good condition when he moved in. The house was let unfurnished, but has carpets.   He has mentioned a couple of different times that he would like the carpets to be changed, but i have said I cannot do that as the existing carpets were fine.

I received a notice/letter off him last week stating that I need to repair a number of items as it is impacting on his health as well as his family.

I can take action to resolve some of the issues, but i think some request/demands are unreasonable, the carpet being the main issue.  I have read up on this, I will respond to him within the 14days, but i don't know where i stand if he doesn't like what I say, as i know i don't need to replace, and the rest of it seems to be cosmetic, or he has contributed to the problem (i.e. blocked the drain with pouring food down the sink).

Today, I find that his housing benefit has been suspended.  I am going to work with him and see if he can make a partial payment towards the rent, but will the council confirm to me if I call them that his benefit has been suspended (i didn't know he was on it to be honest).

I don't see this ending nicely as a small part of me didn't expect to see the rent today.  Can I call it a day and to protect me can I issue a s21 and a s8, or am i stopped by the letter i received last week?

Also, the rent is PCM in advance. 

Thanks.

I think he would have to give the council permission to divulge any information to you.How did he get around the matter of providing you with employer's references and salary confirmation? I would serve S21,be prepared for a lot of bluff,ignore the letter and leave the ball in his court.Claiming health problems may well be part of an attempt to get rehoused by the council.You have protected the deposit,so he can't use that as a hold over you.Good Luck!

Quote from: heavykarma on April 24, 2017, 12:55:37 PM
I think he would have to give the council permission to divulge any information to you.How did he get around the matter of providing you with employer's references and salary confirmation? I would serve S21,be prepared for a lot of bluff,ignore the letter and leave the ball in his court.Claiming health problems may well be part of an attempt to get rehoused by the council.You have protected the deposit,so he can't use that as a hold over you.Good Luck!

Hi heavykarma,

I didn't do a salary confirmation or employer reference. I guess that was an error on my part.  I was trying to sell the house but wasn't getting anywhere for the price i needed and was approach by a neighbour as he worked with him. 

So even though he has sent the letter do i not need to respond to it?  I felt as he has raised some issues which wont take me long to resolve that i should do them.

Does the letter not stop me from doing the "retaliatory eviction" i have read about?

or is it that  due to him not paying the rent on time i can now issue the s21, or do i need to wait till its 8 weeks in arrears?

You do not have to give a reason when issuing 21.He will be on a periodic arrangement,requiring two months notice.That is why it is the preferred method.It does not give wiggle room to the tenant.Are you saying that he did pay the rent up to date-albeit somewhat late? Nothing you have mentioned suggests there has been sufficient conflict to cite retaliation on your part.I am unsure if you actually want to get him out,or if you want him to stay? If the latter,you really need to have assurance about how he intends paying his rent.If the repairs are necessary,I would get them sorted anyway-you will need to do so before reletting.You really need to get things done on a more formal basis next time! 

I'd definitely issue a response in writing, as per the post 2015 S21 regulations. As I understand it, that puts the ball back in his court, and it's then up to him to raise a complaint with the council if what you have proposed is unsatisfactory.

Reading between the lines he's trying to protect himself against a S21 by raising repair issues that affect his health but, if what you propose is reasonable and proactive, I doubt the council will fall for it. Pay particular attention to the areas that are your statutory responsibility to maintain. It's probably worth doing the drain, even if he hasn't used it in a "tenant-like manner".

Get the repairs done promptly and bang in a section 21. You'll need two full months' arrears before you can go down the Section 8 route and, if he's a canny operator, your tenant will keep the balance just below that level.

You may already have read this post, but it covers the "revenge eviction" provisions: http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/new-section-21-regulations-2015-landlords-england/

@heavykarma @Simon pambin

He hasn't been late, but I foresee problems based on what he has done and the timing.  So I feel I want him out.  If he doesn't pay he will be 4 weeks late as I get rent in on month advance.

I was planning on responding to the repair request, and if he now doesn't pay rent (was due today) I wanted to issue a s21.

Do I issue the s21 immediately or after the repair response letter.  Do I need to do anything else prior.  Thanks.

P.s. thanks for the link Simon, will read that.

I could pm you the bits he has mentioned need repair if it helps.  I didn't want them visible in a public forum.

Sounds like Frank Spencer is living there

I would do all the quick, easy & cheap repairs so then he has less reason to complain and say it was retaliatory as most of it was done. I would ignore the rubbish about the carpet, if there's nothing wrong with it doesn't need replacing, I can't see a problem with the carpet holding any weight with the courts or otherwise. Stuff like unblocking the drains can be relatively easy to do, just take apart fitting unblock and replace fittings. Drains often do clog up over time, whether he has hastened it by purposely flushing way more than the usual food waste down there is another matter. If you do some of the easy repairs yourself it may give you a chance to weigh up his manner and see what he is really after/problem is. From there you may get a better idea of whether you need him out or can resolve the problem is my thought.   

Hi Snowflake, thanks for the reply, I was planning on doing the easy ones.

He has made an offer of less than half the rent, not sure if I should accept it and chase him for the rest over the next couple of weeks.

He was complaining he wasn't getting enough from housing benefit and having to cover rent himself.

I will see what happens and make a decision soon I guess. But s21 looks like will the the route once I have responded to his letter and tackled some jobs.

Update: tenant isn't agreeing to my response and is refusing to give me access till he gets legal advice, or unless I agree to change carpets.  He also said he will not pay until I do the carpet.  And if I want him out I need to give him a s21.

To issue a s21 can I email it to him, or do I physically have to hand it to him or post it via royal mail?

You've made a reasonable offer and got his response. The council aren't going to be interested in the carpets unless they're a health hazard and if he does seek legal advice, he'll just get told that he can't withhold rent like that.

Posting a Section 21 is fine. The advice is usually to get a certificate of posting, but don't go for recorded delivery, as that can easily be avoided. For belt and braces, send two copies from different post offices or put a copy through the door.

Thanks for the info Simon, i will get a notice drawn up and send it to him via post, and email as well as one through the letter box.

I guess the next steps would be to start considering the process of eviction and court orders etc.

Update:

I issued the s21 notice to him yesterday  as well as email,  and posted one with proof of postage. 

He went on to tell me that I would have to get a possession  order, so I guess this will get messy.  He is late on the rent, so I guess that is another battle. 

A question I am concerned about is do I have to do repairs to anything else if he pays no rent? He went on about I have to do repairs etc, but I said he needs to pay the rent.

Unfortunately, even if he's not paying rent, he's still your tenant at the moment so your obligation to repair certain things remains. Have a look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

Basically it amounts to structure, sanitation, utilities and heating, subject to the proviso that the tenant must have used them in a tenant-like manner. (You may well be thinking that a "tenant-like manner" includes paying the flipping rent, but sadly it doesn't seem to work like that!)

Quote from: Simon Pambin on May 09, 2017, 12:58:02 PM
Unfortunately, even if he's not paying rent, he's still your tenant at the moment so your obligation to repair certain things remains. Have a look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

Basically it amounts to structure, sanitation, utilities and heating, subject to the proviso that the tenant must have used them in a tenant-like manner. (You may well be thinking that a "tenant-like manner" includes paying the flipping rent, but sadly it doesn't seem to work like that!)

Hi Simon, looks like a big read, will have to read up on it at some point.

How can someone expect upkeep if they don't pay for it, I just don't get it. 

Do you have any advice on when to file for a possession order as well as a money order if he doesn't pay rent and/or leave.  I guess all the court costs will have to come from my pocket.

there has been a bit of a development.  I didn't mention that he gave me partial access of 3/4 hours on Sunday when i did some of the repairs such as unblocking gutter, bit of painting etc, but couldn't do all the repairs, though in my letter i said i would do the wallpaper repair within 60days.  I also handed the s21 to him on the Sunday, signed it on dated Saturday and posted it Saturday, but started the notice from Sunday so he needs to leave by the same day in 2 months time if you know what i mean.

He has phoned me to say that he has had advice from his solicitor and the council that the s21 is not valid because i gave it to him on sunday, and as its a revenge eviction because of the repairs he requested, so he will have 2 cases against me and he will take me to court.

Do i need to worry about any of these, or have i done it incorrectly?  Should i be looking for a solicitor?

edit: he has also just paid the remainder of the arrears so i guess he has been told to keep arrears clear.

The idea that a Section 21 is invalid if handed over on a Sunday has a whiff of the taproom about it. Besides, the one you posted won't arrive on a Sunday, so I wouldn't worry too much about being dunked in ye olde duckpond for being a Sabbath-breaker.

In theory, if you've gone by the book with regard to the tenant's request for repairs, then that shouldn't be an obstacle to your Section 21. Councils can be dysfunctional, though: if they think they're going to have to house your tenant after he leaves, they may try to delay the inevitable by picking holes in your S21, including possibly making more of the repairs list than they should. It might be worth seeing if you can build a rapport with them: send them all the details from your side and ask for their advice.

Technically, your tenant won't take you to court: you'll take him to court, if need be. You can do it all without a solicitor but they can be useful. Take a look around, and see what's available.

Quote from: Simon Pambin on May 10, 2017, 11:54:59 AM
The idea that a Section 21 is invalid if handed over on a Sunday has a whiff of the taproom about it. Besides, the one you posted won't arrive on a Sunday, so I wouldn't worry too much about being dunked in ye olde duckpond for being a Sabbath-breaker.

In theory, if you've gone by the book with regard to the tenant's request for repairs, then that shouldn't be an obstacle to your Section 21. Councils can be dysfunctional, though: if they think they're going to have to house your tenant after he leaves, they may try to delay the inevitable by picking holes in your S21, including possibly making more of the repairs list than they should. It might be worth seeing if you can build a rapport with them: send them all the details from your side and ask for their advice.

Technically, your tenant won't take you to court: you'll take him to court, if need be. You can do it all without a solicitor but they can be useful. Take a look around, and see what's available.

ok, thanks for that.  I was thinking the date issue was the probem, but the date i have asked him to leave by starts from the sunday.

He mentioned the shelter website, so I have had a look at that and looks like his solicitor has been reading that.  I guess i will see what he comes up with first, I have no idea what he is playing at as i thought he was looking to get rehoused by them, but is now kicking up a fuss.  The carpet is the not an issue as they are fine, but that is the only thing he is bothered about.  I told him to go to the council and get their advice, but thats when he started the threats of taking me to court for doing an illegal retaliation eviction.

i don't feel like getting back in touch with him, but i still need to get the rent for the next 2 months (if he pays) and also take the next steps (if necessary) and he may not give me access to do any further repairs.

Well, here's the law: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/21 I'm no lawyer, but I can't see any reference to Sunday in there, can you?

How much notice have you effectively given him? Ideally you'd want a few days over the bare minimum two months, so it's harder to argue the toss over who received what and when.

What's happened is he's gone to the council, they've showed him the waiting list and told him to drag the process out as long as possible, giving him some handy hints on how to do it into the bargain. Then they wonder why it's so hard to get private landlords to take HB tenants these days.

If you are uncomfortable about the validity of your S21 application, it would be better to have a professional take a look at it sooner rather than later. Otherwise you'll get to the end of the notice period, two months down the line, apply for Accelerated Possession and only then will your tenant reveal the fatal flaw in your notice and you're back to square one.

i signed the notice on 06/05/17, and posted it that day with royal mail and kept proof of postage.  the date to leave was 07/07/17.

I handed a copy to him on 07/05/17 and emailed it to him as well on the same day (he has not acknowledged the email).

I used the form downloaded from the gov.uk site.  Should i show this to a solicitor? I am confident I have got this correct.

It's a bit on the snug side! Was there a good reason to cut it so fine?

no, i just picked a date that was just over period, do i need to re-issue it?

Yes. When you mentioned the Sunday thing I hadn't appreciated how close things were. Legally, the document will be deemed to have been served on the next business day.

Which Is the 8th.

Which is less than two months from the 7th of July.

Which is a bit of a bummer, under the circumstances.

Still, it was most obliging of your tenant to point it out now, rather than when you get to court.

Incidentally, you might find this a handy summary of when documents are deemed to have been served: https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/n215-eng.pdf

ok, i see now,

so if i re-issue a new s21, what steps should i follow,  how many days should i allow extra?

what happens to my existing notice?

i should have asked these questions in the beginning.

p.s. do i need to complete this form you linked?

If you start from when and how you're going to send/hand over the notice, that'll enable you to work out the deemed service date. Let's say you post it first class tomorrow and/or hand-deliver a copy at the weekend. That would give a deemed service date of Monday the 15th. The 15th of July is the Saturday, so maybe go for something like the following Wednesday?

As far as I know, nothing happens to the old Section 21, as long as you don't try to enforce it, but others may have more insight on this point.

I recall you protected the deposit. Did you also issue the Prescribed Information (including the How to Rent guide), Gas safety certificate (if applicable) and EPC?

Quote from: Simon Pambin on May 10, 2017, 04:50:11 PM
If you start from when and how you're going to send/hand over the notice, that'll enable you to work out the deemed service date. Let's say you post it first class tomorrow and/or hand-deliver a copy at the weekend. That would give a deemed service date of Monday the 15th. The 15th of July is the Saturday, so maybe go for something like the following Wednesday?

As far as I know, nothing happens to the old Section 21, as long as you don't try to enforce it, but others may have more insight on this point.

I recall you protected the deposit. Did you also issue the Prescribed Information (including the How to Rent guide), Gas safety certificate (if applicable) and EPC?

Thanks for your quick responses Simon.

Yes I protected the deposit, i gave him the prescribed info, i also gave the guide ( i also gave it with the s21 just to be sure) and an EPC and a gas certificate at the start and a new gas cert one a couple of weeks back when i renewed it.

I think I will scrap the current one and give an extra week on the next one just to be sure.  If there is anyone else that can help with more info then that will be great, thanks.

Hi Sagor

The retaliatory eviction rules which you've seen apply where the tenant has made a complaint to the Local Authority and they've served you with a 'relevant notice'. There is still a risk that you won't be able to obtain possession if the relevant notice is served after you've served your Section 21 Notice but this risk is greatly reduced.

I agree with Simon that your first Section 21 Notice was probably invalid because you didn't give enough time for service. It looks like you've probably corrected this with the new Notice but I'd be happy to have a look over it without charge or obligation if that would assist. I've seen a lot of landlords have possession orders refused because of very minor errors with the notice.

Laura

Laura Albon
Solicitor
Helix Law Limited
la@helix-law.com
01273 761990
www.helix-law.com

Quote from: laura_albon on May 15, 2017, 04:34:55 PM
Hi Sagor

The retaliatory eviction rules which you've seen apply where the tenant has made a complaint to the Local Authority and they've served you with a 'relevant notice'. There is still a risk that you won't be able to obtain possession if the relevant notice is served after you've served your Section 21 Notice but this risk is greatly reduced.

I agree with Simon that your first Section 21 Notice was probably invalid because you didn't give enough time for service. It looks like you've probably corrected this with the new Notice but I'd be happy to have a look over it without charge or obligation if that would assist. I've seen a lot of landlords have possession orders refused because of very minor errors with the notice.

Laura

Laura Albon
Solicitor
Helix Law Limited
la@helix-law.com
01273 761990
www.helix-law.com

Hi Laura,

Thanks for the info.

I served a new s21 which would have a served date of Monday 15th, with an extra week just to be sure.

He was OK about it this time round, I guess he has found there isn't much else I can do about the carpet, though I will just let it play out for now.

Hi everyone,

just a bt of an update and some further advice needed if anyone can help.

Looks like tenant will be moving out next week about a week earlier than what the s21 stated.  He asked for some of the rent back as he will be moving out early and would be paying twice as he would be paying for the new house as soon as he gets the keys.  I suggested that he probably needs the week to move his stuff out and hand me the keys on the actual notice end date,

I have his deposit, which was protected, how do I get this repaid to him (provided all goes well).  I was looking at doing it via bank transfer so that there is a record.  What if i need to make a deduction? I am using https://www.depositprotection.com/ so would they need notification from me and confirmation from the tenant that he has had all his money back?

thanks in advance.