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rejecting rent payments after lease expiry?

Started by Gordy67, October 01, 2023, 02:26:15 PM

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Gordy67

Hi there,

Probably not a particularly new topic but having decided to not renew my tenants lease and giving them the legal notice period, they refuse to leave the property.  I'm unable to therefore market the property as intended as no agent will view and list with refusing-to-leave tenants. 
One query is that the tenant wants to keep paying me rent? I can't find any info what to do, as the principled person in me wishes to reject/not accept payment as that implies some kind of arrangement or agreement?  I have no agreement in place therefore I don't want the tenants money - it seems to be accepting any rent payment would send a message that I'm OK with them not leaving?
I can't find any information on this, therefore most grateful for views!

jpkeates

If this is a residential tenancy, there is virtually no chance that the tenancy can end, and so rent continues to be due.

Residential tenancies either continue because the tenancy agreement says that they do, or, if it doesn't, the law creates a new tenancy. Your decision not to renew doesn't have much impact.

If this is a commercial lease, the position is different.

heavykarma

Getting them out could be a protracted process, therefore you should be taking the rent which they owe until they leave. 

Gordy67

Quote from: jpkeates on October 01, 2023, 04:24:38 PMIf this is a residential tenancy, there is virtually no chance that the tenancy can end, and so rent continues to be due.

Residential tenancies either continue because the tenancy agreement says that they do, or, if it doesn't, the law creates a new tenancy. Your decision not to renew doesn't have much impact.

If this is a commercial lease, the position is different.

Hi I'm not sure what you mean? It's a resedential property.

Gordy67

Hi heavykarmer.  I know what you mean but accepting the rent payment to me feels like accepting that it's ok for them to continue to occupy house? Does that make sense?

Does anyone feel similarly?

Riptide

Quote from: Gordy67 on October 01, 2023, 07:55:15 PMHi heavykarmer.  I know what you mean but accepting the rent payment to me feels like accepting that it's ok for them to continue to occupy house? Does that make sense?

Does anyone feel similarly?

No one feels similarly as the lease hasn't expired, as you've written in the thread title.

The lease has gone from fixed to periodic. They have a perfectly valid tenancy and you should be accepting rent. Refusing rent is not a way of ending a tenancy. Either section 21 or section 8 is.

Did you take a deposit from the tenants?

jpkeates

Quote from: Gordy67 on October 01, 2023, 07:55:15 PMHi heavykarmer.  I know what you mean but accepting the rent payment to me feels like accepting that it's ok for them to continue to occupy house? Does that make sense?
It doesn't make sense, because they're already perfectly OK to continue to occupy the house, so accepting rent can't make it more OK.

If you don't accept the rent they pay, they're likely to be entitled to keep anything you return to them, so don't do that!

Gordy67

Quote from: Riptide on October 01, 2023, 09:57:11 PM
Quote from: Gordy67 on October 01, 2023, 07:55:15 PMHi heavykarmer.  I know what you mean but accepting the rent payment to me feels like accepting that it's ok for them to continue to occupy house? Does that make sense?

Does anyone feel similarly?

No one feels similarly as the lease hasn't expired, as you've written in the thread title.

The lease has gone from fixed to periodic. They have a perfectly valid tenancy and you should be accepting rent. Refusing rent is not a way of ending a tenancy. Either section 21 or section 8 is.

Did you take a deposit from the tenants?

Hi yes, I issued the section 21 over three months ago.  The tenants have ignored it and stayed put. That's why there is no tenancy as per the thread title

Gordy67

Quote from: jpkeates on October 02, 2023, 06:45:23 AM
Quote from: Gordy67 on October 01, 2023, 07:55:15 PMHi heavykarmer.  I know what you mean but accepting the rent payment to me feels like accepting that it's ok for them to continue to occupy house? Does that make sense?
It doesn't make sense, because they're already perfectly OK to continue to occupy the house, so accepting rent can't make it more OK.

If you don't accept the rent they pay, they're likely to be entitled to keep anything you return to them, so don't do that!

Hi, and thanks! I do get that but I feel so principled about it that I don't care about the money.... that's not what I want.  It gives the perception that we have an ongoing agreement? They stay in my house and give me money for doing so.  Surely rejecting any transfer of money sends and confirms the message - there is absolutely no arrangement in place here, and I have full rights to evict?

heavykarma

Principles are like knickers. Sometimes you've got to drop them. Why on earth would you want to have tenants living in your property who are not paying rent? If this is really causing you angst,  pass the money on to me. As per my name I already carry a burden of shame, so a bit more won't matter to me. 

Gordy67

Quote from: heavykarma on October 02, 2023, 08:39:53 AMPrinciples are like knickers. Sometimes you've got to drop them. Why on earth would you want to have tenants living in your property who are not paying rent? If this is really causing you angst,  pass the money on to me. As per my name I already carry a burden of shame, so a bit more won't matter to me. 

Um, I don't want them living in my property. That's the point.  Please could you leave this thread open for some useful advice and take your unhelpful, frankly stupid, comments elsewhere. Cheers.

Simon Pambin

Here's some useful advice: when three experienced landlords are all telling you the same thing, you might wish to entertain the possibility that what they are telling you is true.

Reaching the end of a contracted period doesn't end an AST. Sending a Section 21 doesn't end an AST. You'll need to apply for and be granted possession by the courts (assuming your Section 21 is valid) and, even then, your tenants can stay put until the bailiffs turn up. That's a lot of months of rent. Going on a kind of pecuniary hunger strike will have no effect whatsoever on the legal position, and it's unlikely to cause your tenants to have an attack of conscience and leave. You have to bear in mind that, from their point of view, you're the guy who's throwing them out of their home and onto the street. They're unlikely to feel wildly sympathetic towards you.

If you really are prepared to sacrifice a few months' rent to resolve the situation, you might be better of making them a cash offer of a couple of grand to cover moving expenses and bridge the deposit gap, contingent upon them being out of the house by a given date.

HandyMan

Quote from: Gordy67 on October 02, 2023, 09:06:31 AMPlease could you leave this thread open for some useful advice and take your unhelpful, frankly stupid, comments elsewhere.

It's amusing when a poster clings on to their incorrect understanding of the situation, then get uppity when people try repeatedly to guide them.

Gordy67, please listen to what people are telling you, then do some reading to verify that what they are saying is correct.


Continue to take the rent - frankly it makes you look stupid if you don't; it'll be only you that loses out.

Good luck with the eviction process.

Gordy67

Thanks Handyman. 

I used the forum to find out if anyone had similar thoughts or experience on this issue. Clearly not it seems! Perhaps I'm the only 'landlord' who isn't a full-on capitalist only interested in money? My principles are around following the tenancy rules; i.e. you are due to leave on date XX then that's when you leave.  I've rented about 30 places in my lifetime - I can't ever recall an occasion where it was OK just to do nothing and sit there with no tenancy in place having been served noticed. That's where you take control and find somewhere else to live!

and, in my defence, this was a pretty stupid and unhelpful thing to say... I think that's quite clear.

Principles are like knickers. Sometimes you've got to drop them. Why on earth would you want to have tenants living in your property who are not paying rent? If this is really causing you angst,  pass the money on to me.


jpkeates

Quote from: Gordy67I used the forum to find out if anyone had similar thoughts or experience on this issue. Clearly not it seems! Perhaps I'm the only 'landlord' who isn't a full-on capitalist only interested in money? My principles are around following the tenancy rules; i.e. you are due to leave on date XX then that's when you leave.
The tenancy "rules" are set in law, in this case by the Housing Act 1988. Which says that when a residential tenancy in England ends, a new one automatically begins.
There's no option about that, nothing can stop it happening other than the tenant moving out or a court order.

The people responding to you have a lot of experience with this issue. None of them have similar thoughts to you because you're wrong and they're (broadly) right.
If I can try an analogy, what you're doing is like coming onto a geography forum and asking for help in showing the world's flat.
No one'd going to be able to help you in a way that isn't challenging for you.

As for your principles, by all means give the rent back, or hand it over to charity or do whatever you want with it.
But it's still rent, it's still due whether you want it or not and it's still income and will be taxed.

What you're hoping or expecting to happen isn't lawful - which doesn't sound like it aligns with your principles.

Gordy67

Quote from: jpkeates on October 02, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Gordy67I used the forum to find out if anyone had similar thoughts or experience on this issue. Clearly not it seems! Perhaps I'm the only 'landlord' who isn't a full-on capitalist only interested in money? My principles are around following the tenancy rules; i.e. you are due to leave on date XX then that's when you leave.
The tenancy "rules" are set in law, in this case by the Housing Act 1988. Which says that when a residential tenancy in England ends, a new one automatically begins.
There's no option about that, nothing can stop it happening other than the tenant moving out or a court order.

The people responding to you have a lot of experience with this issue. None of them have similar thoughts to you because you're wrong and they're (broadly) right.
If I can try an analogy, what you're doing is like coming onto a geography forum and asking for help in showing the world's flat.
No one'd going to be able to help you in a way that isn't challenging for you.

As for your principles, by all means give the rent back, or hand it over to charity or do whatever you want with it.
But it's still rent, it's still due whether you want it or not and it's still income and will be taxed.

What you're hoping or expecting to happen isn't lawful - which doesn't sound like it aligns with your principles.

Jeezo. This forum really is full of pure fannies.  I quite genuinely sought some advice on an issue; and so far on this forum I have basically been talked down at and told I'm stupid. Brilliant.


How is this helpful? The reason I sought help was to gain the thoughts of those with more experience!

The people responding to you have a lot of experience with this issue. None of them have similar thoughts to you because you're wrong and they're (broadly) right.
If I can try an analogy, what you're doing is like coming onto a geography forum and asking for help in showing the world's flat.
No one'd going to be able to help you in a way that isn't challenging for you.

Gordy67

Quote from: Gordy67 on October 02, 2023, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: jpkeates on October 02, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Gordy67I used the forum to find out if anyone had similar thoughts or experience on this issue. Clearly not it seems! Perhaps I'm the only 'landlord' who isn't a full-on capitalist only interested in money? My principles are around following the tenancy rules; i.e. you are due to leave on date XX then that's when you leave.
The tenancy "rules" are set in law, in this case by the Housing Act 1988. Which says that when a residential tenancy in England ends, a new one automatically begins.
There's no option about that, nothing can stop it happening other than the tenant moving out or a court order.

The people responding to you have a lot of experience with this issue. None of them have similar thoughts to you because you're wrong and they're (broadly) right.
If I can try an analogy, what you're doing is like coming onto a geography forum and asking for help in showing the world's flat.
No one'd going to be able to help you in a way that isn't challenging for you.

As for your principles, by all means give the rent back, or hand it over to charity or do whatever you want with it.
But it's still rent, it's still due whether you want it or not and it's still income and will be taxed.

What you're hoping or expecting to happen isn't lawful - which doesn't sound like it aligns with your principles.

Jeezo. This forum really is full of pure fannies.  I quite genuinely sought some advice on an issue; and so far on this forum I have basically been talked down at and told I'm stupid. Brilliant.


How is this helpful? The reason I sought help was to gain the thoughts of those with more experience!

The people responding to you have a lot of experience with this issue. None of them have similar thoughts to you because you're wrong and they're (broadly) right.
If I can try an analogy, what you're doing is like coming onto a geography forum and asking for help in showing the world's flat.
No one'd going to be able to help you in a way that isn't challenging for you.

No one'd? Looks like no one'd could help with your spelling - I can see that would be far too challenging for you.

KTC

Alright, that's enough of that.

You asked questions on what to do/what people feel about a situation based on the your believes that there is no longer a valid tenancy going forward. People responded correctly pointing out that in law that is not correct. The occupier remains your tenant, with a valid tenancy with every right to continue occupying the property until and unless your follow relevant legal procedure to evict them. They continue to have the obligation to pay rent, which they are doing. As been pointed out, you can do whatever you want with the money, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rent, paid in accordance with the terms of the tenancy to discharge the tenant's obligation to pay that rent.

You don't have to like the answers, but they are the correct answers. If you're just going to attack other posters for responding to you because you don't like the answer, it's best if you go to another venue to find people who'll give you the answer you're looking rather than the correct answers.

HandyMan

It looks like you are on your own Gordy67.

With every post, you are just digging a deeper and deeper hole to sit in.

As others have indicated, you are now going to have to go through an expensive and time consuming eviction process.

Best of luck to you.

Gordy67

Quote from: KTC on October 02, 2023, 01:50:41 PMAlright, that's enough of that.

You asked questions on what to do/what people feel about a situation based on the your believes that there is no longer a valid tenancy going forward. People responded correctly pointing out that in law that is not correct. The occupier remains your tenant, with a valid tenancy with every right to continue occupying the property until and unless your follow relevant legal procedure to evict them. They continue to have the obligation to pay rent, which they are doing. As been pointed out, you can do whatever you want with the money, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rent, paid in accordance with the terms of the tenancy to discharge the tenant's obligation to pay that rent.

You don't have to like the answers, but they are the correct answers. If you're just going to attack other posters for responding to you because you don't like the answer, it's best if you go to another venue to find people who'll give you the answer you're looking rather than the correct answers.

Thanks KTC - that actually is a helpful answer.  My tenants received the s21 around 3 months ago (with 2 months notice). They haven't shown any intention to move.  They suggest they'll be moving out in the next "couple of weeks".  By paying me a months rent in advance, I wasn't clear where I stood with it.   If they move out in a couple of weeks, I refund them the 'unused rent' or suggest not paying me rent at all and just move out asap? I tried, in this forum, to get across that the £ is not the issue - the access to (urgently sell) the property having issued the 21 with no progress, is the issue.

Of course I might not like the answers, but the responders suggested I am stupid / thick / inexperienced to not take rent money.
Anyway, thanks.

Riptide

You seem incapable of grasping the situation and what the expiry of a section 21 is/does.

It definitely, 100%, nailed on, in law, does not end a tenancy or mean someone has to move out.

At this stage the tenants have a perfectly valid tenancy in place.

You have to work out a way of ending that perfectly valid tenancy.

KTC

Practically, if you have an urgency to sell and the tenant aren't in a rush to move, your options are either to sell it with the tenant in situ or incentivise the tenant (with money) to leave earlier than you would get going through court. By the latter, that doesn't mean not accepting rent since that's more an incentive to not go anywhere, but a I'll give you money on the day you move out kind of thing.

jpkeates

Quote from: Gordy67Of course I might not like the answers, but the responders suggested I am stupid / thick / inexperienced to not take rent money.
I can't speak for anyone else responding, but speaking for myself, I'd like to be clear that I think you're stupid, thick and inexperienced not because you somehow think that there's no agreement in place when there is, or because of your thoughts about the rent, but because when everyone responding pointed out your mistake, your response wasn't to google to see why so many people thought you had it wrong. Which would be a natural response. But, instead, you chose to respond publicly and online to double down on your error.

But now you've continued, I've started to suspect that you're not in fact stupid, but you're just trolling. Any random search for what happens at the end of a tenancy is most likely to take you to Shelter (or somewhere similar) where the true situation would be made clear. And not doing that is so stupid as to be, quite genuinely, unbelievable.

heavykarma

I have come to the same conclusion as jpk. I also wonder if the op is actually the tenant in the situation described. To have rented around 30 times is odd,then end up being a landlord? Hmmm....   

Simon Pambin

Quote from: jpkeates on October 03, 2023, 06:58:44 AMAny random search for what happens at the end of a tenancy is most likely to take you to Shelter (or somewhere similar) where the true situation would be made clear.

The How to Rent guide would be a good place to start. I'm sure the OP would have read it before giving a copy to the tenant.

jpkeates

Edit - this is a response to HeavyKarma which crossposted with the comment above.

Good point. Although not being able to find "any info" is disingenuous. I know most of the people responding don't need to look it up, but the most obvious google search for information on the situation returns consistent answers instantly.

I typed "having decided to not renew my tenants lease and giving them the legal notice period, they refuse to leave the property." into google and the first five responses were from gov.uk, shelter and CAB and were helpful. The specific question about rent is pretty academic when you know the arrangement continues anyway - as a landlord or tenant.

Gordy67

Quote from: heavykarma on October 03, 2023, 08:17:51 AMI have come to the same conclusion as jpk. I also wonder if the op is actually the tenant in the situation described. To have rented around 30 times is odd,then end up being a landlord? Hmmm....   

Why on earth is that odd? To rent multiple places as a student, to then live in multiple flatsharing places in London over the years... to renting initially with my family.... to then being luckily enough to buy somewhere, which I then had to rent out due to a job move across the country. 

I can google quite happily. I wondered if any landlord felt strongly enough about following procedures that taking rent money when you wanted people to leave the house was a dilemma.... a fair enough request given I can't find any similar info on google, and I've had absolutely no help on this forum, and only abuse.

Gordy67

Quote from: jpkeates on October 03, 2023, 06:58:44 AM
Quote from: Gordy67Of course I might not like the answers, but the responders suggested I am stupid / thick / inexperienced to not take rent money.
I can't speak for anyone else responding, but speaking for myself, I'd like to be clear that I think you're stupid, thick and inexperienced not because you somehow think that there's no agreement in place when there is, or because of your thoughts about the rent, but because when everyone responding pointed out your mistake, your response wasn't to google to see why so many people thought you had it wrong. Which would be a natural response. But, instead, you chose to respond publicly and online to double down on your error.

But now you've continued, I've started to suspect that you're not in fact stupid, but you're just trolling. Any random search for what happens at the end of a tenancy is most likely to take you to Shelter (or somewhere similar) where the true situation would be made clear. And not doing that is so stupid as to be, quite genuinely, unbelievable.

Read my initial post douchebag.  Does it read like a genuine request on a moral dilemma? I think yes...

jpkeates

Quote from: Gordy67Read my initial post douchebag.  Does it read like a genuine request on a moral dilemma? I think yes...
Your initial four posts do read like you have a genuine question.
Pretty much every post of yours after that sounds fake (or you are so completely dim as to be beyond help).

You have no moral dilemma, because the situation you claim you are in does not exist.
You could establish what you are being told is accurate within a few seconds.

Insulting me isn't going to change anything.

Gordy67

Quote from: KTC on October 02, 2023, 09:40:54 PMPractically, if you have an urgency to sell and the tenant aren't in a rush to move, your options are either to sell it with the tenant in situ or incentivise the tenant (with money) to leave earlier than you would get going through court. By the latter, that doesn't mean not accepting rent since that's more an incentive to not go anywhere, but a I'll give you money on the day you move out kind of thing.

This is helpful KT thank you.  I'm going to try the incentivise route as the court process will be long-winded and messy... all seems rather unbalanced though. After this mess, I do not wish to be a landlord ever again.