UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi everyone,

Sorry if this becomes an essay, I know I'm new and I feel cheeky but I found this lovely site and thought if anyone is going to know anything you guys would be who!

I'm the acting landlord for my father in laws property, he is currently very poorly and unable to manage it.

The house was completely renovated prior to tenants moving in 6 months ago on an assured shorthold tenancy agreement for 6 months. In this time we have spent around #3000 on maintenance and repairs; new carpets, fixing the oven 3 times, hiring an industrial dehumidifier and repairing the roof etc etc. This is ON TOP of all work carried out prior to the tenants moving in.

For some reason the tenants went to the council rather than the estate agents with their issues and long story short the house has been inspected by environmental health and we have been served a notice for improvement. The notice for improvement states work like mains powered fire alarms? It is not a 3 story house and as far as I'm aware this is not a legal requirement for landlords to provide mains fitted alarms? And window restrictors? As I say it is not a 3 story house (it is standard 2 story with no loft conversions etc) Can anyone advise where I stand with a notice for improvement with requirements like this? Has anybody appealed to have one revoked or know anything about it?

We have decided we do not want to renew the tenancy at the end which is the 29th of May, We have told the estate agents numerous times we do not wish to renew the tenancy. They served a notice for possession to the tenants in March, who for some reason assumed they would be renewing the tenancy for another 12 months??? It has only now come to light with my persistent and probably very annoying phone calls to the estate agent that after the notice for possession was sent no other contact has been made with the tenants, and now it is only one months notice for the tenants. Could I get in trouble for this or is this a problem for the estate agent seeing as it's their fault the tenant was not made aware sooner. I will be sending a letter recorded delivery with a date for them to leave but I don't want to only give them one month and then get in trouble for it?

If anyone knows anything about improvement notices and end of tenancy requirements in this god awful situation any advice would be most welcome!

x

You say - "They served a notice for possession to the tenants in March..." - and I assume this would have been a Section 21 notice. If so, there's nothing more to do for it to be valid... assuming admin. around deposit etc. was done correctly. There is no requirement for the Tenant to acknowledge this notice or respond in any way. It remains valid. Am I missing something because I do not see why you think you need to tell them again now?

You say - "...now it is only one months notice for the tenants..." - but it isn't, the notice was already served, back in March. You then say - "...is this a problem for the estate agent seeing as it's their fault the tenant was not made aware sooner." - and that's really got me scratching my head, they were made aware, in March.

The Tenant can refuse to leave when the tenancy ends, of course... your Section 21 only then allows you to seek possession with a Court order, more time (in that time they must continue to pay rent).

You sending another letter (what would you be putting in that letter?) now seems a bit of a strange path to take. Never send notices via Recorded Delivery - a smart Tenant can refuse to sign for them. Normal 1st class post (sent twice from two separate Post Offices with proof of posting if you consider it necessary) is deemed served two days later than the date posted. On the face of it, I would do nothing - the notice sent in March stands.

Correct me where you think I've gone wrong.

I completely agree with you on all points.

You are correct it was a Section 21 notice.

I thought this would be enough but now the estate agents are telling me that because the tenants ASSUMED they would then somehow be able to stay for another 12 months through renewing the tenancy DESPITE receiving the section 21 I am leaving them with not much time to find somewhere else to live. As far as I am aware I haven't done anything wrong but I wanted to check with people who know a bit more than me that I wasn't missing something here, I only felt like I should tell them again now as a gesture of good will maybe or just to cover my own back, but if not necessary then maybe I won't.

Thank you very much for reassuring me that I'm not going insane!

Be wary of advice from a forum, especially my own.
Always do your own research.

The may be a small but incredibly important wrinkle here (something that hasnt been fully tested out yet..you might sadly be a test case).
From your post it looks like the tenancy started after 1st Oct 2015..(?)
That means your tenancy agreement is subject to the Deregulation Act 2015
Of which section 33 is all about preventing retaliatory evictions...

About a year ago the landlord sites were ablaze with pparticles about the potential mischief this could cause....

Anyway without more info from the OP (i.e. Exactly what notice was received and a full timeline of events, when was the complaint made when was the notice for improvement received, when was the s21 served etc) its hard to be sure but there is a question as to whether the section 21 served will be valid...

The specifc statute stiplulates a section 21 cannot be served within 6 months of a "relevant notice" being served
Where a relevant notice is
(a)a notice served under section 11 of the Housing Act 2004 (improvement notices relating to category 1 hazards),
(b)a notice served under section 12 of that Act (improvement notices relating to category 2 hazards), or
(c)a notice served under section 40(7) of that Act (emergency remedial action);

As already stated above hard to be sure given brevity of details in the original post but if it goes to court im afraid you are unlikely to succeed in gaining possesion of your property...

I hope the timeline is in your favour or you didnt get one of the notices above for your sake or you can convince the tenants to shuffle off and they dont realise they can grab you by the curlies...
In any case as Hippo has indicated rent is due for the period of occupancy anyway so hopefully they at least pay...

Incidentally if a tenant gets a s21 it doesnt usually mean they wont be able to stay in the property, in the old days (last year) you could serve the s21 at point of contract as a precaution...dont blame the tenant for assuming they could stay on but I suspect both Parties are culpable for the void of communication.

Best  of luck

The tenancy was indeed started after 1st October 2015

Ah I worried about this, I didn't know the information you have just given me but I know there are rules the reasons landlords give to evict tenants, although I wasn't sure if this only applied mid tenancy or if the rules were different when tenancy agreements reached an end and were to be reviewed anyway.

They moved in late October, in December they phoned the council. Lots of work was carried out (carpets, amending windows, roof work) and the tenants said they were very happy. The council then contacted the tenants in February to arrange an inspection. At this point the tenants could have said no never mind it's all sorted BUT they said no please still come round anyway why the heck not. This has lead to the improvement notice being sent in April and having catagory 1 and 2 hazards for issues such as mains fitted fire alarms, window restrictors, repainting a patch of wall? The list goes on, its a 7 page letter.

I have spoken to the man who did the inspection and he said things like "it's a shame because it's a lovely house, but I can't revoke the notice and you MUST now have mains fitted fire alarms etc because of the notice, EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO LIVE IN IT YOURSELF" By this point I'm totally discombobulated.

The Section 21 Notice was sent to the tenants BEFORE the notice to improve was sent to us from the council/environmental health so is it possible I could get away with saying it's not the only bloody reason? We can't afford the ridiculous list on the notice to improve and I can't have my father in law being fined and prosecuted so the only option is to have the house unoccupied. I hope the tenants don't try and turn it round and bring up the deregulation act! As I said, if the Section 21 notice was served to them BEFORE we received the notice for improvements can they even try and use the deregulation act?

Quote from: rhubarb on April 27, 2016, 06:21:19 PM
The tenancy was indeed started after 1st October 2015

I had originally a fixed term of 1 year... a lot of first-time Landlords do that. This certainly clouds things in my mind, but I feel - whatever you do - you do need to move towards eviction for these Tenants. I fear they are playing you.

The only thing I am concerned about is your first post where you say - "For some reason the tenants went to the council..." - now, I have to ask, is that because they got no joy after repeated attempts of communicating with your Agent? It's possible. Do you know? Could the Agent be lying to you? It's possible, trust me. It reads like the Tenants are unreasonable at the moment... but we need to take an objective look at this. If the Tenants made a number of repair requests that eventually turned into complaints and you were completely unaware of them due to your Agent's inaction, then the Tenant's actions seem more reasonable (at least on the face of it).

I ask this - specifically - because the Agent is the one currently advising you about the short timescale to eviction, right? And it doesn't seem like they're that on the ball (at least to me), nor does it seem like they're acting in your best interests, possibly. It could be time to ask some questions of them if you haven't already.

That said, you still need to separate out - if that's possible - the Tenants no longer being in your property and the works the Council say are required. If the Section 21 was sent before any notice was received from the Council then you should be clear - but I think you will also be kind of testing this. That said - if you've served a Section 21 and you communicate with the Tenant - in an assumptive way - asking when you can meet to do the Check-out and take meter readings and hand over the keys etc. - then you will surely get some kind of response back that at least indicates whether they intend to leave quietly or stay before the expiry of the Section 21 date - most people do just leave, right? Not every Section 21 must end up at a Court hearing.

If you've served the Section 21 and ensure the Tenant knows you want the property back and they then leave at the end of the fixed term - job done!

At the moment, I'm not sure whether you know their intentions (but you do know their desires) and it might be time to find out for yourself.

Then... you can focus on the repairs and improvements. You've picked out things like hard-wired smoke alarms... and I'm sure there's other stuff. Try to be objective again and understand that having hard-wired smoke alarms is a good thing! It is also not clear from your post whether alarms are in existence right now - if you're renting a property without any smoke alarms at all then my sympathy for you reduces dramatically.

I just put 3 x Nest Protects in a refurbishment property I've been working on... I wouldn't say go to that level, but they are bloody good.

Good lord of course I have installed fire alarms! Haha! One on every floor as required. I know mains ones are probably better but I don't agree that the council could prosecute me if I wanted to live there (not rent it out) if I didn't have this or hadn't baby proofed the Windows! The rest of the work will get done, it's not major - new drain cover and things like that.

I also thought like you the estate agents were not playing ball here, however in the extensive email conversations that have occurred they have pointed out quite angrily that the tenants made NO contact to them about the issues they say weren't resolved. It's strange because the tenants continued the estate agents initially within weeks of moving in to ask for a new carpet - we complied. They then went to the estate agent about a leak coming from the roof - we complied. We're looking at a couple of thousand pounds worth of work already in about a 2 month timescale so it's not like I as a landlord wasn't taking action or the estate agents weren't doing their job which is why everyone is so confused about why the tenants went to the council. The estate agents say the tenants apologised profusely and told the council they were happy with us as landlords but still asked for an inspection? I don't think they're malicious tenants I think they're just outrageously... Simple? I don't want to be slagging them off I just don't think they realise the severity and gravity of their actions. I also think the estate agents are a pile of shit because I pay them so things like this DONT happen and look where we are haha!

So the position I'm in now is, the tenants were served the 21 in March, the tenancy is up in May, I spoke to the council yesterday about the improvement notice and start date for works he said no worries no rush then. So i just need them out! Without breaking the law in relation to the deregulation act but as you said, section 21 was served BEFORE notice to improve so i should be in the clear??! Right?? Weheyyy!

Also, I have asked the estate agent at least 3 times to confirm the date the tenants would vacate the property and that's when they said ooh you're not leaving them much time to find somewhere else.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they've had since March when the 21 was issued? It's not anyone's fault but their own that they made the assumption we would renew the tenancy??

It was only this week the estate agents reiterated to them that they would have to move out at the end of the tenancy which is one month away.

Again, I've done all I can? I think the estate agents are pants and haven't done their job but it's happened now and we can't go back. This is why I was considering sending them a written notice to try and identity their intentions but I don't want to get in trouble for not giving them 2 months notice. As yet we have NEVER had contact with the tenants, it's all through the estate agents.

Hmmmm not great news I'm afraid...

You ask
"As I said, if the Section 21 notice was served to them BEFORE we received the notice for improvements can they even try and use the deregulation act?"

The response above
"If the Section 21 was sent before any notice was received from the Council then you should be clear"....

Is not correct.....

Under section 33(2) The timer is set on when the complaint was made in writing to the landlord not when the notice was served by the council.
The problem here is that the statute expressly recognises that if the tenant doesnt have the landlords contact details then it doesnt matter so the tenant can always claim that they didnt have the details so you cant rely on a defence of "I didnt get the notice".
If the complaint is made (even if not received by the landlord(?!)) then the landlord has 14 days to reply. 
Note both of these conditions dont apply if the tenant claims he couldnt contact the landlord.
The s21 is invalid if served after the complaint but before the notice [from the council] is served.

Which I think is your case.....

So sorry no weheyyyy!!! for you...although admittedly the above does require some knowledge of the current status of the law which your "simple" tenants are unlikely to know or understand so maybe fronting out the s21 as if it will 100% apply is path forward...

Best bet is if you want them out then talk to them....
Relying on the s21 is likely to pee them off and if it does go to court then you are cooked.
Talk to them arrange an amicable exit...surely if they need another month and they pay rent for that month its not a disaster?

Another way woukd be to ask the council to suspend the notice but it seems you have tried that already.

Best of luck.

If talking to them means negotiate then I'd be wary. Why open yourself up to things you don't want at this stage? I'd talk to them about when they'll hand keys over, talk to them to arrange that meeting, clearly expressing your expectation that it'll be on or before the end of tenancy date. You may think they're simple, but they may actually be very canny. At this point you'll learn more about their intentions / expectations.

If they understand that you don't want to extend the tenancy and will play ball by leaving your problem is over, as I see it?

No ....talk to them means just that...talk to them...its does not mean negotiate.

It means find out what they are thinking but 101% front out the s21 applies and they need to go.
Walk away
Think about it (maybe another month is a reasonable outcome)
Decide
Then make sure they understand your expectations.

But do talk to them
Someone on this forum seems to think this is a people business .....

BTW: Shout out to the OP "discombobulated" ...got to be word of the month...

Anyway just to explain what council man said....the Improvement Notice is served under the Housing Act 2004
It applies (amongst other things) to "dwellings".

It actually doesn't mean rented out property...so he is right the notice is for the dwelling - rented or not.  Once served you need to address the issues or face a Prohibition Notice.....(not good).

Hope that helps to clear things up.
(Loving the vocab)

Best of luck

With reference to the issues reported initially they have all been rectified, the list of work on the improvement notice is new stuff, not stuff the tenants had reported.

I'm absolutely willing to give them a bit of extra time to find somewhere else, I'm not a complete witch. I just hope they don't try and take the biscuit and stay for as long as they can, and by the sounds of what you're saying if they did that then I'm in real trouble!

Let's hope they cooperate, I'll give the estate agents until next week and chase them up for a leaving date, but I have a feeling I will most likely need to cut out the middle man and speak to the tenants directly to say LOOK, let's make this break up as pain free as possible, I'll give you a bit of time to find somewhere but I need my apparently unfit delapidated humungous house back.


THANK YOU!!!! to both of you, Even though my situation is still pretty dire I am a bit clearer on what to do next.

I'll probably return to this thread with another drama because nothing is ever straight forward in this completely DISCOMBOBULATING saga .