UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi, my brother and I were left our mums house when she passed away and we were lucky enough to gain a fantastic tenant through a friend of a friend. The girl lived in the house for 4 years and was never once late with the rent. However, early last year she was able to get a mortgage and buy a place of her own. Before she left she contacted us to say that an acquaintance of hers had been in touch with her and asked if we were looking for a new tenant which obviously we were. An initial 6 month short hold contract was agreed and the new tenant moved in last September 2014 - that was the start of our problems and showed how inexperienced as landlords we are. We didn't receive any rent until 7 weeks after she moved in and then she only paid for 4 weeks immediately putting herself in arrears. Last week she finally handed over part of the debt which has now been outstanding for 5 months, but February's rent was also due and we haven't seen any sign of that being paid. Basically, we want to terminate the contract which is due to finish at the end of March but we are not sure how much notice we have to give her - whether it's 1 month or 2 months notice? Also, if she turns up with February's rent and the rest of the arrears that she owes us does that make any difference, even though we've waited 5 months for her to bring it up to date? I would be more than grateful for any help - I'm stressed out to death over the whole situation!!!!

Did you take a deposit?

The tenancy doesn't end after 6 months, it goes periodic, there is a big difference.

In order to give notice you need to issue a SECTION 21 notice.  There is plenty of info on this site and the internet, but read this.  http://section21.byethost12.com/  a section 21 is a 'no fault' notice requesting the property back, the arrears or lack of have no bearing on it, they are a separate issue.

Hi, we didn't take a deposit due to her association with our previous tenant and out of common courtesy I texted her this morning to let her know that we wouldn't be renewing the contract and that we would put the relevant notification paperwork in the post. I received a prompt reply stating that she would be moving on anyway but no mention of the rent she owes!!!!!
I'm now again unsure where to go from here - February's rent is now 7 days late plus arrears of £110 which date back to last October.
Do I still need to go with a section 21 or does it then alter to a section 8 if she doesn't pay within another 7 days and what implications does that have on the time she has to vacate the property (the short hold agreement is due to expire on 27th March 2015)?
I'm sorry to ask loads of questions but I have been living with rose tinted glasses on for the last 4 years because the previous tenant was so great and I know that I am showing my nativity now that things have gone pear shaped.
I just want to say thanks for taking the time to help me and hopefully I can treat the experience as a learning curve even though it's stressing me out no end!

You don't need to go near a section 8.  They are for use when a T is in a fixed term.  As their AST is coming to an end the Section 21 gives the formal notice of 2 months that is required.  Ignore the rent arrears, proceed with a section 21 and deal with them at a later date.

Ideally you should have issued the section 21 to coincide with the end date of the AST.  As it is it will roll into a periodic tenancy.

She will not be out of the property by the 27th of March unless she chooses to.

If she isn't out at the end of the section 21 notice date you have to obtain a PO from the court.

Hi, I've sent section the 21 today by recorded delivery. Thanks again to Riptide for providing the template. Feeling a bit less stressed about it today because the wheels are in motion to get her out. However, the fact that she has the gall to live in our house without paying the rent is grating on me badly but maybe I've just got to bite the bullet and put it down to experience. The situation is making me consider my options for the future.  Don't know if I fancy the chance that we could get another non payer so maybe I'll use the services of a property management company or if the situation gets any worse maybe even put it up for sale which will really upset me because it is my childhood home. Oh how the actions of other people can affect your life!!!!!!!

Thats is why you take a deposit.

6 weeks deposit would have been enough to cover what you are out of pocket, and if you had asked for it, it would have highlighted she couldn't pay.

You have come off very lightly considering, I would count your blessings, get the place on the market and use the money you get doing something nice.

Amateur landlord status, is not rewarding if your not committed, and why should you be.

Thanks for your advice and kind words Boboff. I think you are right land lording is great when the going is good but when things go belly up it's only for the professionals.  It's making matters worse because we are emotionally involved as the house belonged to our mum and we grew up there so that is not helping us detach ourselves from the situation although I know we must or we'll end up going round the bend!!!!!! Hopefully the rest of the process won't be too traumatic and they will leave sooner rather than later. Thanks again to everyone who has given me advice and pointed me in the right direction to bring the situation to an end - I really appreciate all of your advice.

If you like the idea of land lording and getting an income from it then I'd recommend selling your mums old home and buying some bricks and mortar with the money instead.  It's a lot easier to let strangers use bricks and mortar that you own rather than using something that has massive sentimental value.

Thanks Riptide. The monthly income is the main reason that we havn't been tempted to sell in the past. Our inheritance is still untouched through the value of the property and we were getting a regular credit whilst the previous tenant was living there. The emotional issue is having a huge bearing on the way we feel about the situation so maybe you are right about selling up and re-investing in another property although I would have to think long and hard about the pros and cons of that first. This forum has opened my eyes no end to the issues of land lording and it has highlighted the differences between those of you who are professional and able to deal with non payers without taking it personally and me who owns one property and is stressed out to death over someone owing more than a months rent. I think naive, gullable and amateur best describes me although I feel that I've learned loads over the last few days and I would like to think that I could handle the same situation better in the future.

I'm not professional, just an individual who does what he can to mitigate risk and loss and do things by the book as much as possible.  I'm totally detached from my properties though, they are places where my tenants live, I've never spent a night there.  I'm prudent with who I choose as a tenant and have reserves accumulated from the houses themselves as a contingency and although I've not had to instigate it I understand the eviction process and what can go wrong.

Just one more question regarding contact with her - the section 21 was sent a few days ago by recorded delivery.
She definately won't get in touch with me so is it reasonable to contact her in say 10 days time to ask what her plans are or would you advise that I have no contact at all until the date on the section 21 is up?
I'm just wondering what would happen if she just moved out and didn't let me know which I suppose is quite possible as she won't want any contact due to the rent arrears?

Contact is fine and normal.  She can move out if she wishes but would still be liable for the 2 months.  You could either let it run, let more arrears build up and not let it out or you could agree a surrender of the tenancy, stop the arrears building up and re let.  I'd go for option 2 myself.

Can anyone let me have a template for an arrears letter?
Our tenant replied to my original text informing her that we wouldn't be renewing the contract (section 21 issued last week) by saying that she would be moving on anyway but when I then asked her politely if she could let me know what her plans are re: expected leaving date and proposals re: outstanding rent arrears she blanked me again.
My plan is to leave it a couple of days and then try again as I don't want her accusing me of harassing her.
But I assume that I do need to make the rent arrears official by putting it in writing to her?

Yes it is essential that you set out clearly in writing what her arrears are and be precise with the dates and amounts due.   This needs to be in writing and in a simple and clear format so there is no ambiguity.
Always confer in writing even if it's just e.mails then you have a clear track record of what is said.

Hi, in 3 days time February's rent will be 28 days late and March's will then also be due. We sent an arrears letter by recorded delivery after 14 days and have had no response. When we send the 28 day letter, should we mention taking court action and is there anything else we are legally obliged to say? As you know from my previous posts this is the first time we've been in this position. Also if anyone has a template for a 28 day arrears letter it would be much appreciated. Many thanks

I don't know what relevance you are placing on 28 days.  Surely the rent is monthly?

A quick Google and the first result found this, http://www.waverley.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/3962/rent_arrears_letter_4-after_nrp_served I'd have thought something similar, modified to remove the instalments part, council contact part should suffice.  I've not had to send any myself but it's not like serving a notice where it has to be exact to a template.  Just keep it factual.

Sounds like you have the classic, been served notice, stop paying the rent scenario. 

Do the T's have a car? From posts on here by 'the sheriffs office' it would be prudent to take a note of their reg number as it seems an easy way of tracing them.

Don't really know what relevance I've placed on 28 days other than I used to work in bank and we would send loan arrears letter out at 14, 21 and 28 days but you are right the rent is monthly and the letter needs to reflect that.

I've knocked something together and will send it out on Thursday when Feb's rent will be a full month in arrears and March's will also be due.

They do have a car which appears to be a works van so I'll get the reg in case I need it in the future.

They still have a full month before the date on the section 21 is up - I so hope they are out by then!

I don't really want the stress of going down the legal route, although I know I should to try and stop them doing the same to someone else, but right now I would just settle for them leaving and handing the keys back.

Maybe try and mention the addition of court costs if they haven't vacated by the date?

My brother has phoned me this morning saying that that because our tenants now havn't paid the rent since 19th January we are entitled to send a section 8 out which means we can apply for immediate eviction - is that right?
He seems pretty adamant but I'm not so sure???

You can apply for eviction, yes.

A Section 8 is just like a Section 21 in many respects... whereas a Section 21 needs to provide no reason for the eviction, the Section 8 has a number of Grounds, which are outlined here for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_Notice#Grounds_for_Eviction

...your brother will be looking at Ground 8 (most likely)... and it is a mandatory Ground (which is good) but it won't be immediate (not sure what he might actually mean by that, but there's a process and Court and all that jazz, as per normal). Section 8 can also benefit a Landlord in the timing aspect, obviously.

The issue is that the Tenant could theoretically pay an amount so that they are just less than 2 full months rent in arrears... so if 2 months of rent was £800 (2 x £400) and the amount outstanding on the day of the Court hearing was £799.99p... oops.

In addition, a Tenant can also 'defend' or counter-claim a Section 8 by citing disrepair... so if you have a savvy Tenant they'll find something (anything) wrong with the property and that will come up shortly... in those circumstances you usually hear of a Court giving more time to investigate the claim of disrepair.

I prefer the idea of the Section 21 all the way. Maybe read-up on both of these and decide what you think is the best / safest / wisest option.

It's the definition of being 2 months in arrears that is making me wary of the section 8. They last paid rent on 19th January so they now owe us February and March's payment - but is that counted as 2 full months in arrears?
My brother is absolutely chomping at the bit to get them out because as I've stated in previous posts the house was left to us when our mum passed away.
He's stressed out to death over the audacity of someone living in the house without having the morals to pay the rent.
Myself, I think we should just let the section 21 (which was issued on 27th February) run its course but I don't want him to think I'm not letting him have his say - after all said and done the house belongs to both of us not just me.

I agree with you. Your brother should be advised to chillax.

I'd go section 21. Less hassle.

Section 21 due up on Monday but no sign whatsoever of her moving out. I sent her a letter by recorded delivery last week reminding her of the date and informing her that if we have to go to court we will be asking for her to be liable for all the costs. I've had no acknowledgment so I think that I had better start reading up on how to start legal proceedings - plus she still owes us 3 months rent. What a nightmare!!!!!!!!

Received a text this afternoon saying she had moved out and left the keys with the neighbour - I couldn't believe it cos I really thought we were heading to court for a possession order.
My sister-in-law went over to pick the keys up and the cheeky so and so has lied and told the neighbours that she has been forced out because me and my brother want to put a family member in the house - no mention whatsoever that she hasn't paid the rent for more than 3 months!!!!!!
If anyone has chased arrears through the court can you let me know your experiences of the process - bearing in mind she hasn't left a forwarding address so we have no idea where she has moved to?
My stress threshold has been teetering on the edge for weeks so right at this minute I don't even know if I have the energy to chase her over the arrears.

Quote from: Shirlpearl21 on April 27, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
Received a text this afternoon saying she had moved out and left the keys with the neighbour - I couldn't believe it cos I really thought we were heading to court for a possession order.
My sister-in-law went over to pick the keys up and the cheeky so and so has lied and told the neighbours that she has been forced out because me and my brother want to put a family member in the house - no mention whatsoever that she hasn't paid the rent for more than 3 months!!!!!!
If anyone has chased arrears through the court can you let me know your experiences of the process - bearing in mind she hasn't left a forwarding address so we have no idea where she has moved to?
My stress threshold has been teetering on the edge for weeks so right at this minute I don't even know if I have the energy to chase her over the arrears.

Wait a while and findermonkey (or similar) will try and find her.

Does she work and have assets or will you be trying to get blood out of a stone.  You have to decide if you want to expend the energy getting no money but a CCJ.

Thanks Riptide. I think I need to chill out for a couple of weeks before deciding if I'm going to pursue the arrears. As you say, have I got the strength and energy to trace her in the first place and then possibly end up with nothing? If you are asking me that question right at this minute the answer would be no, but maybe in a couple of weeks I might think differently.
I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has offered me advice whilst I have been pouring my woes out on this forum over the past few months. Your support in helping me with my legal obligations and also, listening to my ranting over the whole situation has been invaluable.
Thanks again x

Quote from: Shirlpearl21 on April 28, 2015, 06:37:08 PM
Thanks Riptide. I think I need to chill out for a couple of weeks before deciding if I'm going to pursue the arrears. As you say, have I got the strength and energy to trace her in the first place and then possibly end up with nothing? If you are asking me that question right at this minute the answer would be no, but maybe in a couple of weeks I might think differently.
I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has offered me advice whilst I have been pouring my woes out on this forum over the past few months. Your support in helping me with my legal obligations and also, listening to my ranting over the whole situation has been invaluable.
Thanks again x

It's good to sound things out with others, especially strangers sometimes.

You have got an age to take action against this person, years.  Forget about it.  Remember about it way in the future and then attack it out of the blue for the T.