UK Landlord Forum / Life

Yes I have made a silly mistake and got a letter today from the court saying my tenant wants £4140.

I know ignorance is no excuse and I broke the law but wanted a honest opinion on a few things?  And has anyone actually had to go court or been in a similar situation?

They moved into the flat 2 years ago and signed up for 6 months and paid me £1380 which half was a month up front and the other half the damage deposit.  No issues from either side but they moved out 6 weeks early so I said fine and they agreed for me to keep £182 to end it early and I gave them a reference.

So I got a letter back in July from a no win no fee place saying I didn't register it so pay up the 4k or else!!!  I got a solicitor to write back along with copies of messages between me and the tenant when we dealt with each other as they never brought it up to me and even said how nice I was?  This went on a while and in the end I just do what you got to do.  Not once did they want to negotiate.

Again I was wrong but can they really claim that amount even tho the day they moved out I paid them back?  From I understand you have to prove there is or was a ongoing dispute from day one or at least prove you asked the landlord if they protected it?

Also my other issue is and I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing?  They submitted to the court which as far as I can understand is there only evidence the copy of the tenancy agreement but the final page of it is missing and that had both our signatures.  So is it a legal document as no one has signed it?  And could I say what agreement anyone could of printed that out and written what they want.  Also the other problem with this document where it says deposit paid my wife (its here flat) did write in £1380 but I have a dated email confirming that only half of that was the damage deposit?

Not sure if I should just make a offer of £690 or £1380 to them to go away or just go to court and hope for the best.

Again I made the mistake and I was wrong but surely a judge would see it was a honest mistake and I never went out to rip anyone off?  Maybe ill just get a fine.

Everything ive seen online is landlords keeping the whole amount or Landlords can't get rid of a problem tenant due to making the same mistake.  Honestly am I screwed?

And should I pay my solicitor more money to represent me in court if it does  happen or just go it alone?  The court date is March next year but I have about 9 days left to reply   

 

If you go to Court you're screwed, yes.

They will win. How much they will win is the only question.

All your hopes about disputes and them asking you about it being protected are just hopes, I'm afraid. The simple fact is the protection - properly, at all - not the other 'noise'. Sorry. Let us know how it turns out.

I usually advise settling, seems too late for that here. If there was chance, I might still try it with 1x the deposit, or 1.5x to be reasonable.

As to whether you should pay someone to represent you... you would surely do that if there was chance of you winning. There is not. You will be there to take your medicine.

I wish tenancy deposit had been a thing when I was renting - my landlord screwed me over completely with it (claimed I'd drawn on my mattress, which I didn't, and took it from deposit, amongst other things).

Without the signature page, I would say there is no proof that is the actual agreement you had. You have said that records a deposit of £1380, when in fact only half was the deposit. As the agreement is wrong, and there is no signature, surely another agreement should have been produced, and I am wondering if there is any proof of the deposit really. Could that have just been two months up front, with no deposit? I only ask as I know of situations where a deposit isn't taken (usually done through government paying the rent), but if there isn't solid proof that was a deposit you might be alright?

I am very sorry to hear this situation - it sounds as though you had nasty money grabbing tenants if they've stabbed you in the back this way, but some people are just after what they can get I suppose!

If you do have to pay it - maybe counter with proof of any damage they did (if there is anything), cleaning bills for any mess they left etc, to try and claw some of it back? If you had an inventory (if it were furnished for example), and any crockery was broken/cutlery missing etc, claim that from them. Petty I know, but considering the amount they are demanding it might help bring down the loss a little?

Sorry I can't offer any specific advice, I just feel for you as it sounds as though you made a genuine mistake, and the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime (I blame all these opportunistic solicitors!).

Good luck!

Not sure if this is good or bad but got a letter from there solicitor saying they will now accept £2760.00 plus payment of their costs on a standard multi track basis (no idea what that means)

So I want to make a offer of £690 plus the £308 county court cost and if they reject that say £1500 plus the court cost so take it or leave it?  They even admit they didn't pay me for the last months rent!!! My wife thinks we should gamble and go to court.

Gamble how?

You didn't protect the deposit. There is no gamble, is there?

It's not an elective matter for the Court... you will lose if you didn't protect the deposit, the only gamble - I suppose - is how much the penalty will be. Is that the gamble you mean?

It's perfectly acceptable to put it in the hands of the Court... but I prefer to influence things myself. It's definitely your call... £2,760 plus some other number is a bit galling, I certainly accept that. Crunch some numbers... work out your absolute worst case if you are able... then see how palatable this settlement offer really looks. Then see whether your idea (of close to £1,000) seems appealing... some people might go for the bird in the hand. Folk are unpredictable - now there is a Solicitor involved, they'll want their pound of flesh.

After having a long think and reading there 2nd witness statement I am going to stick to my guns and offer £690 plus court costs and if they reject that then the £1500.

Im just thinking say it was £1380 and the judge believes the tenants. Looking at my bank statements it would then show that they didn't pay me almost 2 months rent?  Plus they got back £418 from me.  Why would a landlord give a tenant money back if he was owed money in the first place?  Just doesn't make sense.

Im no judge or solicitor but doesn't this look dodgy from the tenants end?  I don't dispute I am in the wrong but you can't abuse the court system that way?

And again in there new statement they say the rent was £780 not £690!!!!  So there saying they short changed me £90 pcm?  Why would I allow that?

Morning,

All is this stuff might be interesting - but the Court should dismiss all of it (your case, their case) out of hand... all that matters is the deposit protection and the amount of deposit.

If the amount of deposit is agreed, and the failure to protect is admitted, then the penalty will be just 1x to 3x (plus costs - as you will have lost, right?).

Disagreements about rental amount aren't going to matter in a case about deposit protection.

Disagreements about the last month of rent not being paid aren't going to matter in a case about deposit protection - if you feel you are owed rent then you would need to take separate action to recover that. I doubt it's going to be possible for you to conflate issues and 'offset' a loss in your favour against the penalty that will be awarded to the Tenant through your failure to protect the deposit correctly.

Does that help?

Is the deposit amount a point of contention or is it accepted by both sides?

There is never going to be any harm in you making offers... so go for the ~£1,000, then go for the ~£1,500, then decide where you think the matter has ended-up.

That does help.  I just thought if there story makes no sense then I thought maybe there was a chance of getting it dismissed or any missing rent maybe deducted.

This second 'wittness statement' is just winding me up more every time I read it?  There's something in there were he says I owed him £800 for something but he is willing to let it go.  Iv'e looked at that section a few times and have no idea what he reckons I owe him.   Like you say ill just make the offer and if he has sense they will just take it.

We both can not agree on the actual deposit given but I just think if they were that confident I owed them 4k they would not have made me a offer to settle now.  Like you say i'm in the wrong its just how much do I loose?

Basic premise - try to settle out of Court because then, at least, both sides retain an element of control over what they're willing to accept and be happy with. In Court you can pretty much expect that someone will leave unhappy... most likely the Landlord, but you never know.

There is the vibe that Courts don't like things like this to actually reach Court, because - really - it should've been settled earlier.

Not sure if I could use it as my evidence?

Typical I don't have any messages mentioning it to them but other tenant's and people iv'e done viewings with before and after them I have emails and text messages saying what the deposit is and how its broken down.

I just think if my messages and bank statements point to me its actually saying £690 and that there bending the truth the judge has to believe me.  I'm just hoping its a fine of £690 times whatever?

I was going to send a couple copies to there solicitor and say look your client is lying and here's my proof.  So you better take £1000 or will see what the judge says.  Say I did use this evidence would I then get in trouble for not registering the others.

Iv'e spoken to 2 solicitor friends (they don't practice property law) but they think I am stupid to make a offer.  They seem to think worse case £690 Ill get done but I don't want to take a risk.  They both more or less said the same thing that the law is really to catch out big time scammers or people with lots of properties and that they should know better?  They think it will get chucked out.


I just think for £1000 and for it to go away I can just put it down to experience.  Even the latest tenant has only paid me a £900 deposit plus £775 rent up front but I did register it straight away this time

If it goes to Court it won't get "chucked out". The Court won't do that because you've failed to protect the deposit properly - whether the amount is questioned is another matter. I'd like to know on what basis they would think that.

I'd make the offer, I'm in control then.

Likewise, I think a 3x penalty is very unlikely... could be 1x easily, but what about costs, what about stress?

Iv'e decided due to the stress of it to offer £690 plus the £308 then spent already.

The 2 solicitors I spoke to separately say that all there letters from there solicitor are too aggressive,the lies about the amount,lack of a signature on the contract,no correspondence from the claimant about any issues about it before legal action was taken, claimant has lost no money, Judge has better things to do then this?  That's why they think there is a good chance it will get chucked out (I disagree)

The first one who I did pay to write letters said the judges at this particular court we are going to she has dealt with a few times and they are very nice and she thinks things like this they don't like dealing with and especially if no one lost any money.  She is surprised its got this far.  She said let it go to court and for only a couple hundred pound she will walk me through what to do and say.  She said don't turn up with a solicitor as it makes me look less guilty???   

The second opinion I got was from my friends sister who is a qualified solicitor said its highly unlikely to get chucked out but again she says it overkill what they are demanding and how they are acting.  She thinks if they have the guts to go ahead then 1 times plus maybe some or all there costs they will get back.  But she says if you have to make a offer then stick to my guns and say £690 as the judge will look at everyones evidence and ours points to the real truth and I was upfront about not registering it.  She thinks if they keep saying its £1380 it will annoy the judge and they will chuck it out as they have better things to do.

Both have said no private landlord would take that amount up front as its way too much.  So far the claimant has produced no real records of the original agreement but I have a few messages and emails from them and other tenants.  Even the current tenant iv'e only taken £900 deposit so the claimant needs to justify where there getting this figure from?  They both said most people bottle out at the last minute if they know there not really out any money due as its just a waste of the courts time.  They say this law is meant to catch out rogue landlords as usually most that don't register are up to no good but its clear to them this was a honest mistake.  But will see?  They may reject my offer

   

I concur with the conclusion you are reaching. I agree with you that it would not be "thrown out". Make the offer... at least that slap-on-the-wrist, coupled with all the stress, will ensure you never do this again.

Accompany the offer with your reasoning as to why you do not believe a Court would ever aware more than 1x penalty. It may resonate. People know the facts just as well as anyone. It's highly unlikely 3x would be awarded if you're a simple Landlord making an honest mistake. However, as long as there is no dream of the Court just giving you a verbal ticking-off, which I don't think there is.

OK now I know I maybe clutching at straws here but I am wondering can I do them on breech of contract? Here me out.

OK so my contract was only signed by the husband and looking at old emails I told the council only he was moving in regards paying the council tax I didn't mention his wife and I don't know why?  At the time they didn't mention she was pregnant and she dropped a couple weeks later after moving in.  At the time I thought great if I knew that I would of put them off the place as its to small.

So they broke the contract early because they said to the council there over crowed and they need a house and I had the council on my back about it (I have a couple emails and texts still) so I let them go early as they were annoying and I just thought let them go and just take a tiny bit off the deposit.

Also now I think of it his mum was there at the flat a lot of the time and she had letters going there.  Now I don't have the letters but there is a texted between me and the husband talking about a bailiff threat the tenant after them got about a unpaid phone bill which him and the wife both acknowledge by texted.  Could I say the mum was living there?  And he in fact breached the rules in the contract?     

Is it worth me saying that to him and see if he paid council for them or was he just down?

You certainly are clutching at straws.

The only question that needs answering for a successful claim against you is.....did you protect the deposit within 30 days of receiving it?  Other than an emphatic yes then the case is done and dusted.  Everything else is aside.

It's clutching.

My own view is that it's best to not try and muddy the waters by conflating numerous unrelated things - for they are unrelated. You might want them to be related and to, somehow, offset each other or cancel each other out - but that's not how it works.

This friend of mine has said she thinks the tenant has made a mistake with his claim and says I may as well make a counter claim which the count say I can do for £70.  She says yes I have broken the law and we are not going to dispute that so we will just offer £690 and no more but I have said if they don't accept it I am willing to go to £1380 even tho she advises I shouldn't.

She says that the tenancy states that notice must be given to the landlord and that the landlord needs to acknowledge this?  What I forgot to mention at the beginning is this flat I rented is all in my wifes name and the claim is against her not me.  So in theory I am the agent/middle man.  The tenancy was just in the husbands name and did not have his girlfriend on it (they were not married at the time) and I know when it was signed it was just him and my wife that signed it.

All I have is a email from the husband saying he is moving out early and I didn't reply to it so my solicitor friend is he has abandoned the property and the is no exit clause in the contract submitted to the court.  He verbally told me he was going.  Also she says no matter what way the tenant spins it he is in arrears and that he is in less arrears if he says it was £690 deposit.  The only evidence he may have is I sent him a text message saying when are we doing a walk though but ill just because he was a nightmare tenant and we lived next door to the property we just wanted them gone so I let him do what he wanted and he just put the keys in my letter box and left and no walk through was done.  The other thing shes pointed out but she thinks the court won't really consider it is that according to the contract it says he can not move people in without written permission?  So i'm going to say he never mentioned the girlfriend or the fact she was pregnant but and he just moved her in.  Then his mother was having letters sent there and I have a couple messages between me and him because the tenant I had afterwards had bailiff letters sent for a outstanding mobile phone bill so I told the old tenant get it sorted out and why is your mother having post sent to that address?  So ill just say she lived there as well.  I bet the council tax just has him down living alone.

My friend thinks if I issue the counterclaim it will make them think and push them into accepting my offer.  If they don't she said the judge may offset any lost rent against there claim so again they won't get as much as they think they will.  And if they stick to there story of £1380 deposit they in fact owe me about £1100 she says.

My question is if the court does accept the contract he has submitted and tho I have broken the law the judge must accept that he has broken the terms so I am within my right to issue a claim?  I thought the only thing I could not do is chuck him out because I didn't register the deposit but now that doesn't matter because he left anyway.

They have even put a video on youtube about me saying I am going to murder there children???  Iv'e been told the judge won't be interested in that.

Its all confusing to me and i'm not going down without a fight.
   

Bon voyage. 

You need to sit down,take a deep breath,and look at ways to make this all go away as quickly and painlessly as possible.You are getting all kinds of "advice" from well-meaning people,and it seems to be creating a whole mass of daft schemes.Your poor brain sounds like it's ready to explode! The best advice is that given on Oct.10th.by Hippogriff.Follow it.The only fight you can be sure to win is the one you never get into in the first place.

Quote from: heavykarma on October 14, 2016, 08:36:22 AM
You need to sit down,take a deep breath,and look at ways to make this all go away as quickly and painlessly as possible.You are getting all kinds of "advice" from well-meaning people,and it seems to be creating a whole mass of daft schemes.Your poor brain sounds like it's ready to explode! The best advice is that given on Oct.10th.by Hippogriff.Follow it.The only fight you can be sure to win is the one you never get into in the first place.

I know what your all saying makes sense but I paid a solicitor and they said don't worry about it.

This friend who again is a trained solicitor says do this that the other.

Its just worrying me.  There offer of £2700 plus costs is still way to high.

I'm panicking as all his witness statements are just full of lies and when I read them they sound to me really convincing and i'm sitting at home thinking if he still doesn't go with my offer do I just lie back? 

I know Mr Riptide thinks this is funny but I wonder how funny you would find it?  I held my hands and said I was wrong but how can this tenant now change his story and now double the amount   

Quote from: raiden on October 14, 2016, 09:13:31 AMI know Mr Riptide thinks this is funny...

I am almost 100% sure that's not what is happening. People can get a bit frustrated if they think they're taking time out to offer good advice, for free, and then it is ignored or questioned again and again and again. I decided not to respond to your latest lengthy missive because my advice would just be a reiteration of the same that I'd said before... and I'd probably start to sound frustrated with you. I'll just let what I've said before stand on its own two feet.

I guess it comes down to you, now... you can influence the situation by taking careful steps, or you can do nothing and see what transpires without your input. We can't say for sure which will turn out best for you.

Usually I choose to act. I have learned that my input into a situation usually influences the outcome positively... but certainly not 100% of the time, right?

I do appreciate what you have said hippogriff. 

Just don't want to make a wrong decision.  Just never been in trouble with the law and you know what its like you talk to friends and family etc and no one has a answer.  Let you know in March what happens if my offer is not accepted next week. 

I don't find it funny in the slightest.  To me as the lay man and from self education it seems like you're onto a looser with regards to the issue of protecting the deposit as it's generally a black and white scenario.  It was either protected within 30 days or it wasn't.  The issue of the incorrect amount is ghastly and sorting this out must be the priority and then a fair (I use the word loosly) amount can be agreed.

I'm not entirely certain but I'd have thought your counterclaim would be a separate case rather than an amount that would instantly taken off any successful claim in court.  Surely you'd have to bring your own case regarding that claim, fund legal cost's and then win to come out on top.

This next comment will go down like a lead balloon but I will never find out what going to court for none protection will be as I established prior to landlording what had to be done to avoid this very expensive situation.

Hey - I'm interested to know the outcome of this?
I made a similar mistake and haven't registered the deposit, it was an oversight rather than intentional. I want to rectify the issue but from what I have read there doesn't seem much going back? If I do register it now I could be hit with fine / compensation but if I don't do anything I'm burying my head in sand even though now I know that its wrong to not register it!!
Admittedly its my error in the first place but does seem silly that I cant rectify my mistake now.
I wont be making the same mistake again that's for sure

Like many broken laws it's not possible to rectify.  It either happened or didn't. 

It's always an oversight or a mistake.  You'd have to be pretty stupid to know how it all works with the repercussions and still not do it.  I think ignorance would be a good description. 

People, 'landlords', or at least the ones who don't seem to attempt to educate themselves prior to running this business/investment seemingly keep falling foul of the law.  It's been law for nearly a decade now.

The 3 very first hits on google for "first time landlord guide"

https://www.your-move.co.uk/landlords/guides/legal-responsibilities#legal
http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/guide-new-landlords/
http://www.lawpack.co.uk/landlord-and-tenancy/tenancy-agreements/articles/article5856.asp

All talk about the requirement to protect deposits.  Circa 20 minutes reading.

As you say, it's an expensive lesson to learn.

Thank you riptide!
Yeah ignorance could be word to describe it. I had done some research and was aware that there was a requirement to protect the deposit but wasn't fully aware of the repercussions etc. Anyway it is what it is now and my 'ignorance' could cost me.
I have spoken with my tenant and I'm offering them a new 6 month ATC and will be putting their deposit in an approved scheme. Better late than never I suppose.
As you kindly state it could be a costly lesson to learn.
Thank you for your input

Quote from: 4eyes on October 18, 2016, 08:08:01 AMI had done some research and was aware that there was a requirement to protect the deposit but wasn't fully aware of the repercussions etc.

I expect you understand how bad this sounds?

Basically, you're saying that you were aware you were doing wrong, but you couldn't be bothered to do it right because you didn't know the penalty if you were 'caught' or you thought it would be nothing more than a slap on the wrist?

But, effectively, you robbed your Tenants of the surety of knowing their deposit was protected and it would not be stolen.

You sound quite dangerous. I would like Landlords to be seen and perceived by Tenants as professionals who are above board in all matters. You would fall short of this, obviously - but, hey, no-one died, I suppose. What is anyone even moaning about?

I can understand why you have made the judgement that I'm a dangerous landlord and my brief comments on here do make it seem that way. I can assure you that it's not the case though.
Our tenant has said we are the best landlords he has ever had and we have been more than accommodating when he's had money issues and spent money on the property at his request. We have zero intention of stealing his deposit and have provided written assurances regarding this. Albeit I'm sure you will tell me it's not worth the paper it's written on.
Call it what you will stupid / dangerous / ignorant, I will deal with any consequences of my actions. I have learnt my lesson and will ensure that any future deposits are protected correctly.
I apologise if I have rufffled some feathers and for perceiving landlords in a bad way.

Well sent the offer today off £998 or see you in court.  The letter my friend has wrote exposed the lies and if they have any sense they will take it.

If they decide on court I managed to find what I think is good evidence to back up what the real amount was.  Gumtree have emailed me the original advert and have confirmed the date I sent it.  Then the guy who almost took the flat from me before the claimant did I have all his emails and text messages still and he has even emailed me saying that everything I have in writing is correct and he is willing to be a witness (for a small fee)

Then got to do a second witness statement with all this new evidence before the claim is finally filed.  The way its going you would think its a murder trial.

I feel a lot better now I can back my story up.  I guess worse case a couple thousand I maybe out but a lot better then 4k plus fees.  They have posted another video about me which has wind me up a bit but I think they want me to go round there place and do something stupid but I just need to keep cool.

Ill let you know the outcome.  But lesson well learned