UK Landlord Forum / Life

Last month I asked for your help regarding the correct way to issue a repossession notice. I explained that I had fantastic tenants that I would be sorry to see go, but needs must, and I was certain there wouldn't be any problems. Well I'm pleased to write that this is indeed  the case, however I now believe that there have been some terrible mistakes made by the letting agents.
I used an extremely reputable estate agent, the biggest in the area, to find me the tenant, to prepare the contract, and to secure the deposit. After that I would manage the tenant and tenancy myself. I was consequently charged a one off fee for their services, which I gladly paid.

Its only now that I've been asking for advice and reading up on the issue, that I realise there could have been problems - as already mentioned, not with these particular tenants, thank God, but there could have been if they had wanted to
.
I was never given a receipt/proof that any deposit had actually been secured, and neither was my tenant. They were never given a protection certificate, nor a leaflet explaining the protection scheme, and I was certainly never asked to sign any Prescribed Information document to then be passed on to the tenant.

OK, on this occasion it went smoothly, but it could have gone so terribly wrong, and I have no doubt that if it had gone pear shape, the onus would have been on me and not the agent.
What do you suggest I do about it. In the past I've used these estate agent several times to buy and to sell properties and also to find me tenants. It's now come to light that they are not doing their job correctly, plus I've also been charged for a service that quite honestly seems to very badly flawed.

Advice please. 

Why bother with the agent, you can do all that yourself.  That way you know it's all done correctly.

A few reasons really, GLS. Call me naive, but I still believe (or should I say, believed) that it's possible to have a decent working relationship with an agent. I'm also not always available to liaise with any potential tenants as I'm not really local, nor do I have the advertising strength of an agent - lets be honest, they have the capacity to reach far more potential tenants than I do.
But as mentioned above, once the tenant is found and the "correct " documentation has been drawn up, I'll then take over. I don't need them to manage the property as I have a reliable work force of tradesmen if needed, but I prefer to rely on professionals regarding the legal side as we all know to well is a minefield. My issue now is just how professional the professional has been.
I have to agree with you, that with a little more confidence and listening to all the help and advice being offered it is doable. I would still want the agent to find me the tenant and to do all the relevant checks for me.

Quote from: mickeyblueyes on April 19, 2015, 07:53:52 AMI was never given a receipt/proof that any deposit had actually been secured, and neither was my tenant. They were never given a protection certificate, nor a leaflet explaining the protection scheme, and I was certainly never asked to sign any Prescribed Information document to then be passed on to the tenant.

OK, on this occasion it went smoothly, but it could have gone so terribly wrong, and I have no doubt that if it had gone pear shape, the onus would have been on me and not the agent.

On this occasion it has gone smoothly to now. The ex-Tenant is able to sue you for not protecting the deposit correctly for up to 6 years from the date you should have done it. So keep an eye on your post.  If the ex-Tenants decide they care about this, or become educated (I'm assuming that they just don't know or just don't care right now) then you might get a surprise.

My advice, to anyone, is to do everything related to deposit protection yourself. It is not hard or very time consuming but the penalties can be severe, why would you leave it to someone else?

Tenant Find, as a service, does not need to include deposit protection, provision of AST or anything like that... or even photographs and advert write-up... or viewings... Tenant Find can just be getting your advert on the portals. You negotiate their price down if that's all you want. Happy days.

Always the bearer of good news, HIPPOGRIFF, aren't you.
I get what you're saying but on this occasion I'm not worried about tenant reprisal.
What concerns me more is the agent. I'm not sure how to handle them, but this malpractice has to be brought to their attention.
I accept, HIPPOGRIFF that you know your stuff and have no doubt that what you write is fact. I've agreed to disagree with you on another thread regarding whether it's morally right for a tenant to get free money or not when a Landlord makes a mistake, but what you are writing here, and what hypothetically could occur is absolute madness, IMO.
I'm with you that there are no excuses for not securing the bond. I agree that ignorance of the law is a poor excuse and I accept that the Landlord should pay a fine for the mistake, not to the tenant I might add, but a fine should be paid, nevertheless.
But what you are telling me here, that I would be responsible for any costs because the ARLA member estate agent didn't do their job properly, a job that I  paid them to do, is bloody ridiculous. 

Hippogriff is right but if you're determined to have an agent do it all then at least ensure that you double check that they actually correctly do what they're contracted to do and within the time scale needed.
You've learnt that is essential as you may not be as fortunate next time.

Quote from: mickeyblueyes on April 19, 2015, 02:34:32 PMBut what you are telling me here, that I would be responsible for any costs because the ARLA member estate agent didn't do their job properly, a job that I  paid them to do, is bloody ridiculous.

Of course you'd be responsible... you're the Landlord. The Agent would just wash their hands of you and say the same. What do you actually think ARLA membership brings to the party? Nada. You must try to understand how naive I think you come across in these matters and excuse my tone.

If you were sued by the Tenants (and that part would be successful, as we know) then you could elect to take separate action against the Agent, you might be successful you might not. Why not ask your Agent outright what their policy is?

In fact, let's try this... give them a call on Monday, ask to speak to the Manager, tell the Manager that your ex-Tenants are suing you for not protecting the deposit correctly, say you now understand and accept that they will win their case, ask the Manager to confirm that the Agent will step into your shoes and take the penalty on your behalf... come back on Monday and tell us, when the Manager has stopped laughing at you, what was actually said... verbatim.

As a Landlord, there is a big sign on your desk (literally or figuratively) that says - "The buck stops here!"

P.S. - in response to your actual question... advice... well, I'd simply say it's time to get another Agent. Yes, you may have bought and sold some properties with them and they've found you Tenants, but it's just a business relationship at the end of the day, it's nothing personal if you believe they're not doing their job correctly - for you. So try another Agent - they can all get your property on the main portals... just make sure you understand everything you're signing up for and everything they will do for you and, lastly, what they will not do for you.

When I engage an Agent for Tenant Find... I invite them around to look at the property and give an estimate of rental target price. If that jives with mine we're set, otherwise I'll ask them to put it on at my price. I let them take photographs if they want to, but I already have a good set ready and waiting (sometimes we end up using a mix), I let them write an advert if they want to but I have text ready and I ensure I get some key messages in there that I want. Then they get it live on the portals. They do the most basic vetting for me when people call but, otherwise, it's down to me to arrange the viewing. So, if I've said to the Agent - "this property would suit a small family without pets" - and they get an enquiry for a couple with 5 children and 2 dogs, then that information doesn't really need to come to me. After a successful viewing I ask the Agents to do referencing for me, and I always get to see the output. The Tenant may be paying fees to the Agent at this time. After all that is successful, I send over the AST to the prospective Tenants and let them review it (hopefully for about a week), I then ask for the deposit and first month of rent to be paid directly to me - the Agent does not receive funds. I then pay the Agent their Tenant Find fee - after a successful conclusion (in the past I used to pay up-front, but I've learned to be more assertive and I only pay after a Tenant has been found now)... you can't get that with a uPad listing.

I'd stress that I am not paying the Agent's list price for Tenant Find... my rationale behind this is that they're not doing the full amount of work that their list price option includes. It's a bit more bespoke, but it is working for me (us) right now.

If an Agent doesn't work out for me, I find another. I have used 5 different Agents to let properties in 2013, 2014 and 2015. I have found one that I trust and like at the moment and I hope we can do more successful business. I would never put them in the position of protecting my deposits.

You're right, I'm naive and inexperienced in these matters. However, and this I believe to be across the board, you don't have a dog and bark yourself, and if I'm paying for a job to be done by professionals I expect it to be done professionally. Do you check that your solicitor is working correctly? No, that your accountant's books add up, no, that your GP is prescribing the right medication, no. If you do, then why ever go to professionals if you can do everything yourself?
It's also my opinion that sooner or later you'll run out agents who'll agree to your terms, and then what?

There is no doubt in my mind that from now on I'm going to protect the deposit myself. HIPPOGRIFF, you've set out the procedures in a way that seems so simple, but I doubt that in reality it is. I'm sure somewhere on the forum it's written a step by step guide as to where and how deposits are secured. Would you be so kind as to just copy the link for me so that I can study it, thank you.
Next time I'm back in the UK I shall certainly question the agent. I won't phone them as you suggested as I'm quite sure the conversation would go as you predict. Another lesson learnt.

Actually I disagree that you wouldn't check the work of your solicitor, doctor, accountant and so on.  I actually double check everything that anyone does on my behalf down to the nth detail.
Trust no-one to care as much as yourself, you may be paying for the service but sadly that's no guarantee of efficiency. 
Your business doesn't mean the same to others as it means to you.

Quote from: mickeyblueyes on April 20, 2015, 08:14:13 AMDo you check that your solicitor is working correctly? No, that your accountant's books add up, no, that your GP is prescribing the right medication, no.

Morning... it requires no education, training or qualifications for someone to become an Estate Agent, anyone can set themselves up as one. You could, I could. That is the difference between this 'profession' and the other three that you refer to above. That is why it is unwise to trust them and / or treat them as professionals. I hope this input is useful and not seen as me having a go at you.

P.S. - my experience to date is that Agents are very happy to agree to my, not unreasonable, terms because it's a few hundred Pounds for them putting an entry on the portals and taking a few screening calls, then passing the lead on to me... also, don't forget, the Agents get extra money from the Tenant side too.

I used to think Tenant Find required me to pay up front... it's only in the last year that I also found out they're willing to work on a No Tenant No Fee basis. We're all learning all the time.

Call me old fashioned, GLS, but what a shame. Maybe because I deal in a sector where still your word is your bond and deals are done with a handshake.
I of course know that you and the bringer of good news, HIPPOGRIFF, are correct, but I find it sad and frustrating.
But as I believe in taking notice of those who know better, I shall heed all the advice given.

Quote from: mickeyblueyes on April 20, 2015, 08:44:51 AM...I deal in a sector where still your word is your bond and deals are done with a handshake.

Not exclusively you don't, because you are a Landlord... I don't think you'd contemplate letting a property without an AST. Handing over an asset worth £100,000 or more on a handshake would be an interesting approach. I think you'd be back here, asking for more advice then... 

Very true.