UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi everyone

I am hoping with your wealth of knowledge you can give me some advice on the following:


Bit of back ground

Grandfather's house

1.Rented since 1995 to a grandchild on the understanding it was a temporary situation while they sourced a suitable property, very low rent on the agreement that they would maintain property while there.
    He lives there with  his  wife and children and has also built a business unit on the property.

2.No rent book and no rental agreement.

3.Grand father has recently died and  the house has been valued for probate with sitting tenant and in poor repair which will obviously lower its value. Grandchild wants to purchase property at this value.

Family are in arguments now that he wouldn't actually be buying it with a sitting tenant so therefore should be paying a higher value and also that he hasn't carried out the maintenance hence the poor state of the property.
Of course now the grandchild is saying there was no agreement for maintenance and it wasn't suppose to be a temporary thing!

Can you tell me the Grandson's rights as a tenant? Does he have an assured tenancy so the family are unable to give him notice ?

Solicitiors advice so far was to get two values, one with tenant one without and go half way between the two and that he cannot be given notice.

I would be very grateful for any advice or opinions.

Thank you   

Hi,
This is a legal nightmare for you all.  The upshot is that you have a sitting tenant, anything verbal was so long ago and not backed up with anything written in essence doesn't exist.
Why he was allowed to do all this is amazing, someone in the family should have been in charge of taking care of business so quite frankly all are to blame and no good complaining now.
This can of course be resolved in court but easier and cheaper option is to do a deal that is palatable with the everyone concerned.
Weigh up the loss in purchase price against legal fees and it's a no brainer.   I'm sorry but the whole family is to blame here and will have to take the loss on the chin.
Learn lessons and always do things legally even if it is family.

Hi Gls

Thank you for your reply I couldn't agree more with  what you have said!

As one of the other grandchildren I  had voiced my concerns for years and years and warned them that it was going to be  a complete nightmare! 

I am asking really on behalf  of my  Mother who will be a  beneficiary and just wanted to clarify the position, so thank you! 

Quote from: slinks on April 14, 2015, 10:07:45 AM
1.Rented since 1995..........................

That's a really bad time to have started renting.  As the Shelter website says http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/private_renting/private_renting_agreements/assured_tenancies unless it was a written agreement that it was an AST then it looks like being an assured tenancy.  No notice can be served if the case, is my understanding (I hope I'm wrong)

As you rightly say, the value of an assured tenant house is vastly reduced from one that's not.  Looks like the tenant now has ALL of the power but I really don't know anything on the subject, so time to seek some expert legal advice and go from there.

Hi Riptide

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, it is not looking good   

There could  be  something to be argued legally but as Gls points out the costs would be prohibitive.

This is the trouble when people have a Will but it does not cover the problems that arise once they have died......and the vultures come out!

Many thanks

One more thing though, the family can raise the rent to a reasonable level.  That would be a perfectly legal thing to do and he'd have no argument against that.
It would help a bit while all this is going on.  Get your solicitor to write to him outlining the new rent level.
Best of luck with it.

Hi Gls

Thank you , I wasn't aware they could do that, I assumed it had to stay low. He was paying £30 pw for a 3 bed detached rural house in half an acre which rose  to £60 last year as the grandson felt he wasn't paying enough.

Excellent, at least there are options now.

Many thanks

Oooh get a valuation from an agency for a fair rent for that type of property, clearly the relative who's living there was expecting something similar when he offered to double what he'd been paying.
I'm guessing, and it is a guess that the new rent would be several multiples of that but as I don't know what part of the country the house is I couldn't say exactly but it's easy to find the going rate for such a property.
Keep us posted.

Hi Gls

Yes I think that he is very aware his rent is way below what it should be!

North Devon with your view being a National Park!

It's a shame people have faith because it is a family member...

Many thanks

Have a word asap with a local agent to find out the going rate for this type of property in that area.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Incidentally, don't forget to ask who's insuring the house.  Where would it be if it were to have a fire for example.
Your family need to get a policy sorted asap if not already done but it is the responsibility of the family and not the tenant.

Hi Gls

Hadn't even thought about insurance situation so thanks for that 

I know this isn't a landlord problem  but what is your opinion on the grandson buying the house? He wants to buy it at the value of it having a sitting tenant but he is the sitting tenant so he will be buying it without one!

Should he then be paying full market value or as the solicitor says half way between full market value and sitting tenant value?

Your opinion would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Ok,
scenario one : Sell it to him but it'll be at the lowest valuation as he is most certainly the sitting tenant so is devaluing for his own gain but your stuck with that.  He will be then able to sell it at full market value but hey ho nothing you can do i'm afraid.
Scenario two:  Don't sell at all.  Increase the rent to the relevant market level and the family all share that. 
Out of interest, what is the bottom end valuation whereby you can only sell to him and what is the full market value with no sitting tenant.
I suspect that once he's told that the family are not selling but the rent now goes up to market value he may just make a more sensible offer.
Call his bluff !

Thanks Gls

I think my Mother is going to push to get the rent raised asap although she will have a fight on her hands when her sister  (the other beneficiary) is the mother of this grandson!

Then as you say he might have a more sensible offer. At the moment they have only had the low valuation, which obviously pleased the grandson greatly. We are waiting now for the  other valuation.

Other than that I suppose they could put it up for auction and the grandson and everyone else can have a chance. If there is then a new landlord and grandson is still the tenant he might not find that  as appealing.

Thanks for your input 

I seriously doubt if anyone at auction would touch it and you'll have auction costs to pay.
How many beneficiaries are there in total.
It's very sad that through an act of kindness originally this can potentially divide a family.  I hope it resolves itself well but I suspect there are tears ahead.

Hi Gls

There are three beneficiaries. My mother, her sister and brother who unfortunately died 4 weeks before his Dad so his part is going to his 3 children now, who are obviously all grandchildren too. So it is going, to as you say, divide the family.

As the solicitor is the only executor she will have to do what is best for the beneficiaries so what she does will have to be accepted regardless of how any of us feel  about the unfairness of it all

The annoying thing is my grandfather  wanted to  sort this situation out  but it was left and although he  had  dementia in the last 6 months, at the grand old age of 94 his parting shot  just before he died a couple of weeks ago was .................. nothing to do with me you can all fight over it when I am gone (sure he knew what was going on more than we think).  Which is exactly what  will happen !

where did the grandfather live up until he died...? did he live with the grandson or was he in a home...?

Hi Charlie Brown

My grandfather was living with his wife in her house up until January this year. She died in January and he was taken into hospital at that time and died in March. Her Will stated that he could live in her house until his death but he never went back there.