UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi everyone,i am new to this forum and must say it looks like a mine of information.

I have a two bedroom house that i have rented out for 5 years now.The first three years i used an agency to manage it for me and they made a total cock up of it. They put a dss tenant in there that wrecked the place in 6 months.They did manage to get her out and replaced her with a nice unmarried couple with a small child.He worked and she did not.
As soon as they had found the new tenant i stopped using the agents,they let me down not doing checks and stuff like that.It cost me £3000 to make the place liveable again and all i got out of them was £500 and a sorry.

Anyway that is in the past.The new couple have looked after the house and although sometimes late have always paid the rent.The agent had put them in there and when i stopped using their services they transferred there deposit over to them.Here the problem began as it turns out they had lots of debt and as soon as the money was put in there account it was gone.So i had good tenants but no deposit.Despite repeated hints that i would get it soon blah blah blah i still have never had a deposit from them.
I let this go because they did look after the house well and i figured it was better the devil you know.

Hope your all still with me and not bored yet. Three months ago she rang me and said her boyfriend had left her and he had moved out.She was however going to get HB and would like to stay there.
So i now had a single mum on benefits in my house who although not my ideal tenant was still looking after the place so again better the devil you know.

Now i used to live in this house and know a few people in the road.On bumping into one of them the other day he told me that the guy had in fact never ever left the house and they were still together.

It is obvious that they are lying to the benefit people just to get there rent paid.She does not know that i know this and i am unsure what the more experienced people on here would do.
On the one hand she is paying her rent and looking after the house but on the other hand she is clearly lying to me and braking the law.I have also changed the building insurance to a single dss tenant living with a child which is not actually what is happening.

Should i get her to sign something stating that i have never received a deposit.Should i confront her about the boyfriend and should i just keep quiet about the benefit situation.I will probably sell the property in a years time and have read about the horror stories on here removing dss tenants.I would like that process to go as smoothly as possible.

Any advise would be greatly received.

Hello Mirrorcarp,

Don't start off with an easy question, then!  There's a legal and moral answer to this.  The legal arguement is that because all advice is verbal you can effectively deny you know anything other than what your tenant has informed you.  The moral answer is that robbing from tax payers is bad and you should have a quiet work with Housing Benefit people, even if it's possibly going to disadvantage you.  Only your own moral compass can tell you which course you take.

Just some thoughts about what you're being told:
+ Can you completely rely upon what your old neighbours are telling you?  I'm aware of people telling stuff to landlords in the hope landlords act on the hearsay because the tenant had done something to hack them off an want to give the tenant grief.
+ Their relationship may be more complex than on-off.  He may have moved out.  But he'll want to come round to see his child (if he's a good dad).  So neighbours will see him come and go.  Are they reading too much into that?
+ Or they might be trying to work it out again.  He might be staying round some nights, but not permanently living there.
Only you can make the final judgements on this.

What are you trying to achieve by asking her to confirm in writing she's paid no deposit?  I'm not sure why you're asking this.  Rather than "confront" I might encourage her to be completely candid with you.  If you're getting suspicious that you're getting strung along then it may be time to terminate the tenancy.

Not exactly the "do this or do that" answer you were looking for, but I do hope these thoughts help you.

Thanks for your advice.

On the deposit thing i was just worried that it is her word against mine that i never had one.I have read some threads where tenants have just lied about deposits to cause trouble for there landlord when the time comes to move them on.
It does bother me that i have never had a deposit for the obvious security it gives you against damage but after 3 years she is clearly never going to give it to me.
Would a situation ever arise where i would have to prove she never gave me a deposit or am i just worrying about nothing.

The boyfriend thing bothers me a lot. I will look into it a bit more because it just doesnt sit right with me that he may be working,living in my house and getting benefits.As you say though i think i need to be sure before i do anything about it.

If i told the  housing benefit people about this my concern is what they would do.Would they stop her benefits meaning i dont get paid.I then have a tenant with the hump who could make things very difficult for me.
I am now into a periodic tenancy so s21 is an option.I think if i went down that route it would be best to say nothing and hope she leaves quietly without fuss.

I have much to ponder.

Hi mirrorcarp.  If you've got some written comment from the lettings agent that they paid the deposit directly back to the tenant during the tenancy (the muppets!), then I'd not be overly worried.  If the tenant were to claim the return of a ficticious deposit form you then they'll get nowhere.

I agree with you.  Taxpayers always get annoyed by the few people who milk the system designed to support folks who really need the state's help.  I don't have enough experience of Housing Benefit to tell you all the possibilities.  I'm farily sure HB is only stopped after an investigation, not upon receipt of an accusation.  The council can also retrospectively reclaim overtpyments from you.  Whether they'd do this from a landlord who tipped them off in the first place, I don't know.  But common sense would say they should not, otherwise what incentive have you got to report suspicions you have about HB cheats to the council?  Then again, when was HB run along common sense lines?!

Maybe another londlord out there with better HB knowledge can please step into the conversation to take up the advice...

If you do report them to the council, your tenants will never know it was you.  They may have their suspicions, but they'll never be told by the council what made them investigate.

Another point i could do with some help on. I have read on here a lot about the problems of removing DSS tenants.How councils advise them to stay in the property etc.If i give her 2 months notice does that mean that if she finds another place to live by herself her benefits would not change.

In other words does she need to tell them she is moving.I cant see her leaving if she has nowhere to go and i guess that is when the problems start.The problem i think is that she has no deposit and there is no way she would get another house like mine.It has been redecorated throughout,new bathroom,central heating.

I dont have anything in writing from the letting agents,they were a complete waste of my money.We left on very bad terms and i doubt they would help me now.

It sounds wrong but i could use the boyfriend thing as leverage to make her go quietly.

Hello Mirrorcarp,

I'm outside the scope of my personal experience now (ive been lucky - I've never had a problem tenant who was on benefits), but I wanted to at least give you the courtesy of a reply.

I've read similar atricles, too.  I think these relate to tenants who receive Housing Benefit but spend it on something else.  So the Council think they're housed and sudenly they turn up to the council and say "help we've got nowhere to live".  As your tenant is keeping up the rent she's not in this circumstance, so you might have an easier time.

I've done a quick read of Direct.gov.  She'll need to inform the council of change of address, I guess they'd assess to see if the new house deserved the same or lower rate of HB allowance.  There seems to be a big delegation of admin to local authorities, so whether payments would be continious may depend on where you live.

As far as getting her to leave your house, can I suggest a different tack to using the possibility of her boyfriend being a benefits cheat to force her out.  Just tell her you need the house back for personal reasons.  Even spin her a sob story about wanting to pay for your granny's care home costs if you can bring yourself to lie.  But basically make her understand: It's nothing to do with her, how she's treated the house or her boyfriend.  Why?  Well imagine the conversation if you're used the "dodgy boyfriend" tactic once they're takling together that night:

Her: "we're getting chucked out.  We've got to move"
Him: "why"
"landlord knows about you living here and you're scrounging benefits"
"what a c***!  so what if I do.  I'm still on the tenancy. and he gets paid properly.  Who does he think he is - Miss Marple - interfering little b******"

Even worse, imagine if the neighbours have not got the right end of the stick
Her: "we're getting chucked out.  We've got to move"
Him: "why"
"landlord thinks you're living here"
"but I'm not"
"I know.  But he's issued a section 21.  There's nothing I can do"
"what a c***!   Who does he think he is playing god with other people's lives.  And he doesn't even know the truth".

Either way up, it won't take long for you to become spawn of the devil in their eyes.  Then at some point, they'll remember they've got no deposit to regain.  They're feeling really sore.  This creates pyschological justifications for doing bad things.  At best, you won't get a clean house back.  At worst it will be trashed.

So just tell her you want the house back, if that's what you want to do.  Maybe even offer her three of four months lead in time because she'll need that time to get a deposit together for a new landlord.  Be so nice that the idea of trashing the place will never enter her mind.  And because you've been such a nice bloke about it all, she'll clean it before leaving as her way of saying "thank you".

If you've got no deposit, you've got to be canny to ensure you get your house back in a decent state.

Hope this helps you.

Thank you for that reply, you have talked a lot of sense  there.

Its strange how you can own a property but the tenants hold all the cards. I have been very good to her and can only hope that she returns the favour.

Well would you believe it i am really not making this up. My wife came back from the gym this morning and had bumped into an old neighbour that lives two doors away.
Seems they did actually split and he did move out. The reasons being that he is apparently an alcoholic and the girlfriend ended it.

He is now firmly moved back in and only gone and got her pregnant for good measure. They are supposed to be giving it another go.

Not sure it makes much difference to my situation but i am hoping that they may actually look for a bigger house now as it will be awfully cramped in there with another child.

I think i am going to tell them of my intentions to sell but give them  3 or 4 months notice so they can try to save a deposit and find somewhere to go.

His reasons for moving in and out like a yoyo are not your problem, pregnant girlfriend or not.  Your confidence in them is now low, and that is unlikely to change.

Everything Jeremy has said still stands, and you can still give them notice.  Tell them you want the house back for personal reasons, to sell it for family reasons etc.  Tell them any old yarn.     After all, they don't seem to have been totally up-front with you, so don't feel guilty.

You will then hopefully gain the opportunity to re-let it to tenants in whom you can have more confidence.