UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi,

Thanks in advance for any advice!

I had a tenant due to move into my flat I rent out last week but once the keys were handed over they decided to get a family member who is a gas registered engineer to look at the boiler (apparently he does this as standard) and he claimed to have found many 'illegal' faults.

His report identifying faults  ranging from a missing battery in a smoke alarm (I have a photo of the batteries being in the alarm from the check out report,anyway....) to wonky doors. In between he mentioned poor access to the boiler, poor wiring and leaking radiators. Out of 18 issues identified, only 3 concerned the boiler. In short, it seems very vexatious, and unprofessional  in the extreme with many of the faults created for the purposes of the report . However, he did write at the end that he can submit this report to HSE and gas safe if "we would like" This is despite the boiler having had a full service and a gas safety inspection 9 months ago!

To be honest, I think that for whatever reason they just don't want to move in anymore. So, they are just looking for a way out and I am fine with that. Who wants a vexatious tenant on their hands.

The problem is the Letting Agent who is saying that they will refund their rent for the first month but as it has already been paid to me they need it repaid.
Again slightly galling but I was still ok. Anything for an easy life!
However, the first months rent that I received after the management fee and chunky letting fee were deducted is less than half of a regular rent income. However the agent wants me to pay the full amount back to them essentially 100% even though I only received 30% i.e. covering their management, inventory and letting fees which they do not seem prepared to lose.
Apparently if I pay this by 2nd January then they will end the tenancy on 3rd January.

What are my best options in this situation? Do I just have to pay up?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Was it the letting agent who found the potential tenants and recommended this one to you?

Yes. It is a fully managed service. I've never met the tenant.

Quote from: boggler
Yes. It is a fully managed service. I've never met the tenant.

Then I'd assert that the letting agent bears some responsibility for this; perhaps not legally, but morally.

I would be polite but firm with the agent. Write to them (never communicate by phone) and tell them that the tenant they selected was clearly unsuitable and that, as they have not actually managed the rental for even a month yet, they have not earned the fee.

You need to decide whether you want to stick with this agent and ask them to find a suitable tenant, or whether you want to ditch them. If you do intend sticking with them, you can use the threat of ditching them as leverage to get them to waive the tenant find/management fee.

They may decide that keeping you as a long term client is preferable to you going to another agent.

Has the tenant said that they will only agree to cancel the tenancy if they get the first rent refunded? It must stick in the throat,but at least both tenant and agent have shown their true colours early on.I would not use this agent again.They are meant to be working for you,but that is something a lot of them forget.If you end up having to fork out at least you don't have a nutter/nuisance making your life a misery.Hope the rest of the year goes better!
 

Hi,

I am guessing they might argue that I selected the tenant as after the viewings, they presented
me with a synopsis of 3 different applicants and based on their information I chose this clown!

Do you have the name and/or registration number of the family member? Have you looked them up to confirm that they are actually currently Gas Safe registered?  https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/find-an-engineer-or-check-the-register/

Could you post here all 18 items that the tenant's family member identified please?

Let's see the problems in context and establish whether the HSE & Gas Safe threat is just a bluff.

Yes. I've looked them up and they are registered. Ok, here we go.(the atrocious grammar and spelling are as per the original):


Issue 1
Assigned To GAS DEFECT
co detector not installed correctly must not be fitted on top of boiler all covered in latest guidelines and standards.
Issue 2
Assigned To Gas Defect
Very poor boiler very restricted for access and no signs of service, unable to get to heat exchanger to confirm poor analyser combustion readings. Flue boarder line to window plume did come into property at time of test this is an at risk situation.the unit that surrounds the boiler is in bits and is broken in various places and had to reset pressure as two radiators in the proprty are leaking and have pinholes in them suggest replacement.
The boiler will require a full corrective service and major works to make it servicable in the future.
The isolation and wiring to this unit is very poor all controls wiring is fitted behind broken panel and wall is covered in mold ond safety test found cable (live) and just simply left on wet floor. (AT RISK).
Issue 3
Assigned To Letting Agent
On tracing cable fault found extremely filthy smelling fridge covered in grease and oil trapping cable which tripped RCD.
Issue 4
Assigned To Gas Defect
Radiator has poor control and is sludged up and has a leak as picture causing boiler to loose pressure.This is a pinhole and rad will
require replacement and controls to work.

Issue 5
Assigned To ELECTRICAL SAFETY
Fouund second (live) cable in wet area just simply taped up this is a extreamly dangerous practice.
Issue 6
Assigned To Building Defect,electrical Safety.
Poor electrical connectiond on damp walls and major damp ingress.
Issue 7
Assigned To Gas Defects
Complete kitchen unit broken in many places unable to gain access for service, boiler is not installed as it should be not to the clearences in installation manual.
Issue 8
Assigned To Electrical Safety
Loose exposed wiring in existing old airing cuboard require urgent attention and electrical safety inspection.
Issue 9
Assigned To Building Defect
Door broken and bent does not close.

Issue 10
Assigned To Building Defect Shelf and rail broken.
Issue 11
Assigned To Building Defects Shower rail broken in many places.
Issue 12
Assigned To Heating Defects
Another radiator leaking to to age and possibly lack of inhibbitor in system.
Issue 13
Assigned To Gas Defect
Poorly
sited co alarm not working missing battery at risk and enforcable by law.
Issue 14
Assigned To ELECTRICAL SAFETY
CABLE THAT HAS BEEN JUST TAPPED UP AND IN A LIVE STATE THIS IS EXTREAMLY DANGEROUS ELECTRIC SAFETY REPORT RQUIRED.

Issue 15
Assigned To Building Defect
One of many defcective broken and dangerous unit weak and will cause harm if left unchecked.
Issue 16
Assigned To Gas Defect
Suggest a correct gas tightness text and saftey certificate to be carried report to gas safe to be sent if no response.
GENERAL
Assigned To Gas Defect
Plume entering property on occassion this flue would benifit from a plume kit.
   12:16 28/12/2022
   Issue 18
Assigned To Letting Agent
15:16 28/12/2022
  Carried out minor inspection following smell of product and smells in kitchen .
FINDINGS.
Very poor unsafe boiler ,very poor unsafe elctrics , incorrect gas safety inspection,major concearns
for saftey on the co alarms,boiler and electrics.
Heating system leaking and very poor .
General cleanliness is very poor many defects all contribute to a property that is not in its current state fit for purpose. I would strongly advise you to correct all of the above issues.
I have not sent report to gas safe or HSE as yet but can do in you so wish. I am fully gas safe registered and have been for 30 years and have training gas engineers fo over ten.
This let is dangerous and should never have been let.

Putting aside the grammar and poor spelling, and disregarding the items assigned to 'Building Defect' which may be of concern to a tenant but are not inherently unsafe, the reported gas and electrical safety issues do sound credible.

When did you last have the electrical system inspected and an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) produced?

Has any electrical work been done since then? Live electrical cables should not just be taped up and would have been mentioned on the EICR.

Does the boiler service report or the Landlord Gas Safety Record that you had done 9 months ago mention any defects or recommendations for improvement?

Did the report from the tenant include photos of the problems?


It's hard to know for sure, but weighing up the report and the fact that you did not 'admit' to any faults in your original post, I'd say that the tenant and the Gas Safe registered guy are not being "very vexatious, and unprofessional in the extreme". It feels as though there is genuine cause for concern.

If what is reported is true, then the defects are your responsibility and the flat should not have been let in this condition. You have a duty to ensure that the flat is safe.

I'd be inclined to pay the letting agent for their services to date as none of this appears to be their fault, and not re-advertise the flat until you have commissioned a new Landlord Gas Safety inspection and an EICR inspection.

It would be sensible for you to assess and if necessary address the other reported defects as well so that future tenants don't have reasons to complain.

The last electrical report was last year and organised by the letting agent. No faults were identified. The smoke alarm also had both batteries at the last check out at the end of November. I have the letting agent's photo of this!

I forgot to add that the agent sent in their own gas engineer who maybe unsurprisingly found that the only issue was access to the boiler.

The agent is suggesting using him to fix this issue.

It seems unlikely that someone would report "a taped up live cable in a wet area" and for that not to be the case because the truth or falsity of the statement can be easily verified.

I'll ask again: Did the report from the tenant include photos of the problems?

Yes. There are photos!

Quote from: boggler on January 01, 2023, 09:47:51 PM
Yes. There are photos!

That's good news.

It's very helpful to you, as you will know for sure whether there actually is a taped up cable or not - and, assuming it exists, where it is located.

And you'll know for sure whether the other reported problems are true or not.

Quote from: boggler on January 01, 2023, 09:26:35 PM
The smoke alarm also had both batteries at the last check out at the end of November. I have the letting agent's photo of this!

You keep mentioning the smoke alarm, but the report seems to be talking about a CO alarm. Having said that, as far as I know a CO monitor isn't yet a legal requirement in England for a normal tenancy, unless there's a solid fuel heating appliance. Maybe it's one of those "if fitted, must function" things.

I'd be curious to know how he worked out that the boiler was losing pressure in the space of a short visit during which he was running the heating. If it's dropping that much the heating would pack up completely in a day or two.

The electricals do sound dodgy if they are as described. Everything else sounds like snagging, rather than grounds to reject the tenancy outright.

I've dealt with enough Tenants and trades in my time. My SpideySense is tingling, because it feels like someone has either gone "all in" to try and take you to the cleaners... or you're honest-to-goodness letting some kind of slum property. Only you will know which is true. However, in the absence of any other information... the grammar and spelling on display here is not to be forgiven. No competent adult should be working on 'professional' documents like this is supposed to be and continue having anyone's trust. Kick them to the kerb. The prospective Tenants got you into this situation so kick them to the kerb as well. The Letting Agent is part of this so kick them to the kerb.

Then take a deep breath and take stock.

It feels like you're going to have to undertake some remediation work... I doubt each and every one of those things can be dismissed. However, it needs thought... especially when someone has presented you with a total falsehood in: "Assigned To Gas Defect - Poorly sited co alarm not working missing battery at risk and enforcable by law."

This alone causes me to think someone is trying to scare you into expensive action.

Sadly, it looks like any course of action you take here is going to end up costing you something... but ensuring these Tenants don't get a grasp on your property, and this gas engineer doesn't get any follow-on work (just in case) is your immediate priority.

I wonder what would have been stated here if there wasn't a CO alarm present at all.

I have - personally - experienced dodgy trades trying to have me take action that wasn't needed. In my case it was an EICR that concluded a £3,500 rewire of a terrace property was required. I had to learn all about all the information held in an EIRC and do a lot of legwork trying to effectively debunk his dodgy report... which included getting a second EICR done (my second opinion!) which - when he saw that - he stepped back from his own report and also refunded me. It was a good job he did that as was teetering on the edge of reporting him to every standards body I could think of. Even at this stage, getting someone else, completely unrelated, in to do your own (very, very temporally relevant) GSC or even a Service of the boiler could add to your ammunition stockpile. These people work to fill in standard forms in standard ways... but you will find there's so much subjectivity at play it's unreal.

What really matters is whether you can be sure the property is safe. This not only amounts to having the documents to prove that - but, also, in your own mind taking into account common sense... I once went completely ape-shit with a Tenant who wouldn't let me do an Inspection - not scheduled, but because I knew something wasn't right (SpideySense again) - and, when I got access, I found dangling bare electrical wires where they were 'in the middle of changing some light fittings". It doesn't need an Electrician to tell you that isn't safe. So, if you've wandered around your own property at any recent time and you have seen bare wires - get them rectified pronto. No-one needs that documenting by a professional... even if they're a professional conman.

An alarm having working batteries at a Check-Out isn't really relevant, is it? Check-In is where you want that documented. Think about this in a common sense way.

Don't worry about the incoming Tenant rejecting the tenancy - you reject it... get out and don't look back. I think this will cost you more in the long run if you end up proceeding to avoid some 'penalty' type expense right now.

Quote from: Simon Pambin on January 02, 2023, 01:58:46 PM
Having said that, as far as I know a CO monitor isn't yet a legal requirement in England for a normal tenancy, unless there's a solid fuel heating appliance.

It has been a legal requirement since 1-Oct-2022.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/smoke-and-carbon-monoxide-alarms-explanatory-booklet-for-landlords/the-smoke-and-carbon-monoxide-alarm-england-regulations-2015-qa-booklet-for-the-private-rented-sector-landlords-and-tenants

I believe it is merely good advice not to place the CO monitor on the appliance (in this case on top of the boiler) to avoid false alarms if the appliance emits a tiny amount of CO. The guidance is that the monitor be placed 1-3 metres away from the appliance to allow any CO to diffuse and only trigger an alarm if the amount is excessive.

Although the link here is often wishy-washy advice and guidance... Landlords can do this, or they can do that, they can take this path, or this other path, you can even go talk to these people to get more advice... at least it is very clear on when alarms should be proven to be working - "The regulations require landlords to ensure alarms are equipped, and to check that each prescribed alarm is in proper working order on the day the tenancy begins if it is a new tenancy."

So a Check-Out point in time is totally meaningless.

Let's just say, if safety was the main concern of the people who're writing this stuff, I think they would be more directed, prescriptive... and, let's face it, simple. So I presume that they have other concerns, and providing Landlords with choice due to some high-minded philosophical position isn't necessarily it.

Quote from: Hippogriff on January 02, 2023, 02:58:31 PM
It feels like you're going to have to undertake some remediation work... I doubt each and every one of those things can be dismissed.

What really matters is whether you can be sure the property is safe. This not only amounts to having the documents to prove that - but, also, in your own mind taking into account common sense...

Yes. Safe. Exactly that!

This is why I asked to see the list of reported faults and then kept banging on about the photographs.

@boggler, we get lots of people coming to the forum (typically first time posters) who present an issue and ask for advice but don't tell the whole story. They pose their question in a very subjective/one-sided manner and advice is offered on the basis of what they said.

It's only later, after a a fair bit of probing, that additional information is revealed, and the advice needs to be revised.

I agree with Hippogriff that you likely have some work to do to address what appear to be some real safety issues. And personally, I'd be inclined to deal with the 'snagging' items as well, because then they are done and you won't get future tenants complaining about them.

Quote from: HandyMan on January 02, 2023, 03:12:58 PM

Quote from: Simon Pambin on January 02, 2023, 01:58:46 PM
Having said that, as far as I know a CO monitor isn't yet a legal requirement in England for a normal tenancy, unless there's a solid fuel heating appliance.

It has been a legal requirement since 1-Oct-2022.

Ah, once again the Future has become the Past whilst I was looking the other way. Happens all the time... 

Thanks for all the helpful advice. I have now had my own reports undertaken and yes there were some snagging issues that needed attending too. I have taken a belt and braces approach and fitted new radiators, sockets, switches etc. I am also updating the kitchen.
The good news is that the tenants have handed the keys back and never moved in. The agency seems desperate for me to finish the works and rent the property back out. Without wanting to blame them though I feel it's a good time to part ways. I'm just not sure how to broach it with them though!
On another note, it's a two double bedroom maisonette with living room. It currently rents out for £900 per month and my mortgage is around £450 a month leaving me with around £350 after the agent has taken their cut. I am thinking to rent it out in future on a room by room basis with the two bedrooms to single tenants and the living room as single/two tenants. I want to keep under 5 people though so as to avoid needing an HMO licence. Any other things that I need to be aware of etc?

Your lucky that this univited expert didn't try to send you a bill for their work...By the way, what permission did they have to enter your property and start poking around?

How do you know they didn't remove batteries or damage the rads?

Quote from: monabri on January 18, 2023, 11:59:53 AM
Your lucky that this univited expert didn't try to send you a bill for their work...By the way, what permission did they have to enter your property and start poking around?

How do you know they didn't remove batteries or damage the rads?

That's a very good question. Apparently, there was a funny smell. So, the tenant asked him to come and take a look. It is his uncle, I believe.

Others will know more about HMO's,but I think what you are contemplating could still be considered as such.You are also opening a whole new world of pain,with conflicts between tenants etc.Not something I would ever do.

Quote from: boggler on January 17, 2023, 06:39:00 PMI am thinking to rent it out in future on a room by room basis with the two bedrooms to single tenants and the living room as single/two tenants.

What a truly terrible idea.

Quote from: Hippogriff on January 19, 2023, 10:58:14 AM

Quote from: boggler on January 17, 2023, 06:39:00 PMI am thinking to rent it out in future on a room by room basis with the two bedrooms to single tenants and the living room as single/two tenants.

What a truly terrible idea.

From my initial research, I am coming to a similar conclusion!

Quote from: boggler on January 19, 2023, 01:39:48 PM
From my initial research, I am coming to a similar conclusion!

Why did you even think for a moment that this might have been a good idea?

It'd be a terrible set up for your would be tenants and a world of pain for you as landlord.

With your current rent you are covering your mortgage and getting an income each month. Why be greedy?

Offer somewhere decent and attract decent tenants. Make the place somewhere that they want to stay for a long time.

Jesus ! I never new plumbers/G Fitters splet Sue bahd !!

All joking aside, a few mates that left school at 16 aint the best at spelling or grammer.
I did A level English for a year b4 dropping out so just about know the difference between there they're their.

Plenty of allright trades aint exactly Shakespear.

With regards to the electrical bits, the terminology sounds odd/ like a kwikfit fitter trying to scare you into new full brake system.
Anyone filling out the relevant forms would be re-using the terminology on them.
Language doesn't come across as competant/honest person.

Chancers/2nd opinion.
If its so so dangerous do you have right to go in on little or no notice with your test guy ?

Quote from: Kneel Tenant on February 13, 2023, 02:37:55 PMPlenty of allright trades aint exactly Shakespear.

Sic?

You're conflating various things, I suppose you're aware.